Linda, I hope you are joking. Or are you truly pretending naivete in order to insulate yourself from having to face this very important question which we must all eventually face on this path of consciousness exploration and awakening?

Here, just take a look at this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL6gnMHK53k

Now tell me, is eating a strawberry the same as eating a cow?

Oh, and just so we have a basis for comparison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr0DrBbYbso&NR=1

Dalace,

Can you vouch for the literalness of the truth of the slaughter video as the documentation is stated or is it, as I strongly suspect, just propaganda? Let me introduce you to a remarkable young lady with autism, Temple Grandin, Ph. D. http://www.grandin.com/. She is very talented, despite, or perhaps in part because of, the autism, and one of her capabilities and the focus of much of her research is the humane treatment of animals and animal welfare. Because of her special attributes, she can understand and empathize with the viewpoint of animals going through the process of slaughter. There are also laws, specifically the "Humane Slaughter Act" with which meat processing companies must comply. Her research contributed to the removal of upsetting factors in the processing leading up to slaughter of animals which resulted in stress to the animals and damage to the quality of the meat. I simply think that the video you link to was produced for shock value, rather than truth.

Speaking as one who has raised and slaughtered their own meat, there is a right way to do it. I believe that it is valuable for a human to experience this aspect of reality since society has removed us from the roots of our nature so thoroughly. It would produce a much more realistic viewpoint. A major clue to the nature of our reality is within each of our mouths, our dentition. We are designed to eat a certain amount of meat, not to go chase it down and kill it with our teeth, as we have an omnivore's dentition, not that of a carnivore. We must have a certain amount of fiber in our diet from plant materials in order for our 'plumbing' and nutritional balance to operate properly, but we normally need a certain amount of meat as well. If civilization had not made it possible by a combination of wide availability of foods and nutritional knowledge, to be a vegetarian, it would be dangerous to attempt to be one. It is still difficult to obtain all the right nutritional components to maintain optimum health as a vegetarian. One must work at it intelligently or suffer some consequences. As an omnivore, one does not have to think so much about nutrition to get along satisfactorily and with reasonable health.

So is this video in this posting a confrontational attack on the sensibilities of viewers to make a point or a legitimate representation of what the full truth is? My impression is that the stunning, the actual death cause and removal of the animal's consciousness from their body (from the PMR viewpoint) is omitted from this video in order to portray the activities as being practiced upon truly living and conscious animals. Loss of consciousness and death can still be followed by a lot of 'twitching' of the carcass, and I say this from direct experience. So is this video truth or a lie perpetrated to foment the cause of the creators?

Ted

I understand your position there Ted. Of course the video is produced for shock value, and I posted it for shock value. The intention is that you see the life blood of that animal splatter on the walls and see its body roll around it its entrails. It really makes no difference if the animal was sedated before the event or not. The image created is enough. Humanity does not have to be built on a foundation of unseen horrors.

Let me ask you this, would it be less horrific if a person were in that position just so long as the person was sedated beforehand? The question is, can you extend your empathy to somthing that isnt just like you on the surface, can you see that in many ways beneath the surface you are actualy more the same than different. That has always been a fundamental challege for man, no?

At one time you may have been right Ted, a vegetarian diet in the wild might have been dangerous or impossible If only for a lack of variety, because the ONLY nutrient that you need from meat is vitamin b12 and the only reason we need it from meat is because we dont very often eat the dirt with the fruit anymore. Also, the requred amount is very very small. Luckily, we know that there are several sources of B-12 that do not require the slaughter of animals, namely, milk, eggs, and just about any aquatic plant. Advanced greenhouse farming techniques and globalization have made it so that pretty much nothing ever goes out of season.

So by virtue of human development, evolution and understanding, we have come to a point where it is no longer a choice of neccessity, it is a choice of morality. There is no choice of action that can be made that does not ring far and affect the whole world. What do you suppose the effect is, when we slaughter unnecessarily?

I am not here to judge, and I certainly have not eleminated all meat from my diet. I just think it is important for us to really know what the choice is. It is a moral choice, an ethical choice if you prefer. When I do eat meat, I usualy choose what I see as the lesser of evils. Fish over foul, foul over beast. These choices are fundamental to humanity as to who we are and who we are to become.

But my question to Linda, Ted, was simply to tell me again, is eating the cow the same as the strawberry? Feel free to answer, what do you think? Same or no?


And Ted, i have to say. We can kid ourselves all we want, but there is no such thing as HUMANE SLAUGHTER. The two words are about as contradictory as two words can be. That is not to detract from Dr Grandlins work. I understand what she is trying to do. My objection is meery one of semantics.

Someone summed up everything I am trying to say here by posting this quote on another thread.


"We Are All One. This is the only message that matters. It is the only message there is. Everything else in Life is a reflection of this message. Everything else sends it.

The fact that you have so far failed to receive it (you have heard it often, but you have failed to receive it) is what has caused every misery, every sorrow, every conflict, every heartache in your experience. It has caused every murder, every war, every rape and robbery, every assault and attack, mental, verbal, and physical. It has caused every illness and dis-ease, and every encounter with what you call "death." The idea that we are not One is an illusion." Neale Donald Walsch ~ Communion with God

Dalace,

Thank you! I agree with you very much my friend. Right now I'm still at the "fish" stage, along with some shrimp or crab thrown in every now and again. It's been difficult as my family still eats meat, but easy in the sense that I can't imagine actually enjoying beef anymore. (Chicken doesn't really bother me, but I've made a point of not eating any for at least the past year, (with the exception of one or two bites of someone else's every now and again).) I would argue, as Tom does- that extremes aren't really the answer either, but it is definitely something we need to get a grip on as a society. You're correct in your assessment that we've moved past (at least on average, as Americans especially) our need to slaughter in order to eat. Granted, if someone lives out in the middle of the forest with 5 dollars to their name- killing a deer with love and respect for the sacrifice that animal has made seems morally justifiable. But there is no reason for any of us to be making excuses about our excessive meat eating. Just because it "tastes good" doesn't mean it is good... "Tastes good" doesn't equal "death" in my book.

-Cole

_________________
Never live so certainly as to confuse your own convictions with what is true.

I don't know for sure, but I think a point Ted was coming at was that the bang or stunning which I believe is something like a nail to the brain kills the animal (Consciousness *poof*), and the movements after (without watching this one, I've seen "Meet Your Meat" already) are not the animal writhing in pain. So then by using this shocking footage without people knowing facts it is manipulation. Temple Grandin desires cows to be less fearful by imagining what it is like to be a cow, walking through the chutes the cows travel to get to slaughter to experience for understanding the stuff that scared them. She cares about the cows well being as they are going off to slaughter, and designed chutes to be more friendly. Ted cares about peoples well being too as they thinking this animal is in fact writhing in pain in their own guts is hurtful, and incorrect. The message that animals are people too is coming into its own, but we have to remember that people are people too and there is enough horrific stuff without misinformation making us think there is more.

Do fish feel pain? http://www.slate.com/id/2219276/
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

I made this short video to highlight several issues related to the animal cruelty, animal food production, health implications and as a motivation for those considering excluding meat and fish from their diet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5q7ggAK74k

_________________
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
www.martinpeniak.com

I recognize that post, I would bet money it was mine. This would have been my response to the Michael Sharp thread as well, had it stayed up long enough for me to get my two cents in there.

Thank you anyway jackinthebox but I did not watch your videos.

I love the synchronicity. I heard Temple on NPR last week for the first time and was extremely intrigued. Thank you for mentioning her, Ted!
I should have said lifeforce not consciousness. You have to kill the strawberry to eat it. So in that respect, it is the same as a cow. The strawberry was minding its own business until you came along and murdered it for food. That's all I'm saying.

I have not decided yet about the vegetarian issue, but I very much appreciate all of your concern!

Have a wonderful week everybody!

Lynda

Okay so I'm watching "How It's Made" where they show you how stuff is made, topic of this show was "chickens." First problem, chickens aren't stuff, but surely I digress.

This was the farming of baby chick so we started with the fertilized eggs. Mind you this show is trying to be not horrible so there was no beak burning off, just the "manufacture" of baby chicks. \

So the probably fertilized eggs go into special racks that tilt 45 degrees twice an hour, back and forth like the chicken would be during to their eggs, then after a number of days they go through a sensor to see if they are opaque or translucent, if translucent a vacuum pulls them out as not fertilized. The good eggs go into a machine that pokes a hole and puts a vaccine inot the white of the egg, then 122 eggs go into each incubator tray.

Most of the eggs hatch after a time, then they all dry and look fluffy and cute, just like baby chilckens. Then the baby chicks are pushed over rollers that they fall through to seperate them from their egg shells, it looks scary to me, and they seem scared, to me.

Then they finally get a touch when the sexer grabs their ass to see if they have two rows of the same length tail feathers, or two rows of two different lengths of tail feathers, that is the difference in sexes. Then they get tossed down the appropriate shute for their sex.

Next they are loaded into shipping crates per order, and sent under a mister if more inoculations are purchased when they were ordered. While the tray of baby chicks was sitting there and the voice over was saying that's how baby chicks are made, a hand reaches in and picks up a baby chick to give us a better look. The thumb on that hand pets the chick to get some response, I guess, and the chick looks right at the person whose hand is touching them like, "MOM, oh my gosh Mom you wouldn't believe what they did to me, MOM save me" as the hand tosses the chick back into the tray mindlessly.

It was horrible. That little chick felt what it thought was "love", and reacted. It has bothered me since, I can't get that look of "you noticed me" out of my head. I don't care, I know about inprinting, it was a look like, wtf, seriously.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Seems this topic is quite a passionate one. Just goes to show us how much we love our food. Eat to live or live to eat? As the saying goes.

I guess since we can't live without food, (although i do 10 day fasts 3 times per year - The master cleanser) we try to rationalize what is "right" or "wrong" for our body and also in a moral sense.

I like to use this word a lot to keep things in perspective: balance.

My first job at 14 yrs old was McDonalds! I remember making 3.00 per hour minimum wage! Anyway, my diet was severely lacking to say the least. Later in my 20's i turned vegetarian for about 7 years. Exercise, diet, running, etc. I was pretty healthy, but looked a little too thin and my overall constitution suffered. Now, i find i fall somewhere in the middle, way less fanatical about diet, exercise. It seems to work well for me.

I guess we all have to find what works best for us. I don't believe there is "one size fits all" when it comes to diet, health and life for that matter. Diversity leads to a much richer experience for all of us. It is experiences that present us with the opportunities to best lower our entropy. I would guess what you eat is just not that important in an entropy reduction sense.

I have know a lot of low entropy meat eaters as well as high entropy vegetarians. As for me and my opinion on the subject, i would guess that whether you are a vegetarian or not has little to do with your capacity to become love.

Steve.

_________________
Be the difference.

You are probably right Steve. I've been noticing it is societies that kill for fun or to eat that don't make it, as a rule. Like the Mayan's, if you look at their main sport the captain of the losing team got killed. This book I am reading talks about sacrifice and religion being entwined, animal or human, not vegetable. I think it matter in that way, that things with Consciousness shouldn't be food, in my opinion which is much different than my actual diet, although I am trying to get with it more every day. I know that industrialized farming is evil, in my heart of hearts.
Love to you and yours,
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Hello Steve, I don't know if we've met, but I couldn't agree more with this statement

I think it is more about how than what. Therefore, one can be of course meat eater and be equally loving, providing he really needs to kill other animals to survive himself. In this case it is a matter of survival. If this is not the case then anything that is being said here seems to me as a way of justifying eating meat in order to feel good about what you eat. This is a well known behaviour in the field of psychology. I guess it is a paradox that if one wants to lower entropy yet goes to supermarkets to buy meat or fish without caring how and where this meat/fish was produced and how the animals were treated. I call it ignorance and ignorance is far from low entropy so everyone should be true to him/her self and realise if you really care about other beings or not. If you do and you need meat/fish for your diets and care what you buy and where you buy from, I perfectly understand, however, if you feel deep inside you that it is merely a justification in order feel better about eating meat or going with the herd in order not to be 'different' than I do not agree with such doing. Evolution has not stopped and goes on so arguments such as we have always eaten meat do not bear any significance in the nowadays world where we can buy food from all over the world. Additional arguments such as, we need meet for iron, proteins or any other minerals are hardly justifiable. Please do not believe anything simply because everyone says it, going vegetarian is not a problem for vast majority of people.(http://www.sugarrocket.com/vegan/vegan- ... hp#protein)
The problem in this case is letting go of fear of being different, understanding that meat/fish (especially nowadays) has little value and often does the opposite due to chemicals/antibiotics/pesticides in it etc. And finally sacrifying our tasty meat and substituting it for more healthy and ethical food is often an effort that many wont want to do and therefore many will justify eating meat as a way of staying in the comfort of their doing. Best is to do your own research and look at the facts without being biased by what you are going to find out: http://blog.atmajyoti.org/2008/04/human ... by-nature/

Although I understand that we all are different and for some it might be a bigger challenge that for others.

Live and Let Live http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5q7ggAK74k
YOU are the change (warning, very graphic) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZWI2ntL ... 2A&index=1

Earthlings, should be a compulsory watching for everyone discussing vegetarianism: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 130308142#

Regards,
Martin

_________________
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
www.martinpeniak.com

Martin when you really get down to it, we also need to be mindful of how the fruits and vegetables we eat get to our tables. During my research into gangs, MS-13 specifically which started in California, I have found much manipulation of Absolute Free Will of the farm workers as well. Industrialized farming is kind of evil too, the workers are treated badly for profit, per what my research has found.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Of course, I can only be responsible for myself. Personally I buy fruit and veggies from local organic farms with hi standards. I prefer to pay more for
food, in which way I am sure I did everything I could to obtain the best what is good for my body and also to support the local economy.

_________________
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
www.martinpeniak.com