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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:27 am 
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Bedeekin wrote:
What's a 'rote'?

EDIT: does it mean repetitive learning?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rote_learning

Not sure what you mean though in relation to OOBEs.
It's a Robert Monroe term that I like, as defined by cOsmOnautt.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:32 pm 
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I see... ROTE... What does it mean? I can't find what it's an acronym for. I haven't read Far Journeys... or the other one... looks like I should.

You are talking about communicating with characters/entities. I find this the way I distinguish between projected characters and independant free thinking entities.

During an OOBE that has been entered using SP or meditation, I talk verbally to characters... probably a quazi-physical action; like I do in physical life. When it comes to communicating with 'entities' it is a two way non verbal interaction: A set of many questions or an all encompassing content. Like a synopsis. Is this a ROTE?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:27 pm 
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Yes, that was Robert Monroe's concept of a Rote. I think the concept was based upon rote memorization. That is a mechanical practice of memorization, not necessarily including an understanding of what was memorized. You would receive this 'chunk' of information which you would have to understand gradually as you worked your way through it over time. I personally liken it to a gestalt which is a body of information that means more in total than it does when broken down into individual pieces. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. From the Merriam Webster Dictionary on line:

Definition of GESTALT
: a structure, configuration, or pattern of physical, biological, or psychological phenomena so integrated as to constitute a functional unit with properties not derivable by summation of its parts

Ted


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:16 pm 
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OK... I've just ordered 'Far Journeys' from Amazon. People always turned me against it, saying it was very different than 'Journeys' and seemed to be more an advert for the Hemisync product. But... that's what I get for listening to other peoples opinions. Thanks Ted and Bette.

The reason I joined this forum was because of a recent experience that involved a strong sense of what you mean Ted. I'll put it down in another thread rather than expain it here. Suffice to say the experience directly followed a weekend reading binge of an ebook version of 'Awakening'. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:35 pm 
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Far Journeys is a great read, IMO.

As I recall, "Rote" was a term that Rob Monroe more or less pulled out of the air to describe what amounts to "wads of information" that one receives in telepathic form. Literally, if you accept the thing, you "open" it up by attending to it and pieces of information unpack themselves and reveal how they all fit together. You don't necessarily have to do it on reception of the 'rote' or 'thought-ball' , it can be one later.

But that's not why I am posting ... I see through the whole thread that there is the assumption that all LD or OOB are the same. That is certainly not my experience.

Some of my lucid dreams have been of a profoundly mystical bent, pure and happy medicine ... others are just utterly ho-hum.

I think there are various levels of OOB as well.

Separately, Monroe's "focus 15" is said to be similar to Lucid Dreaming ... a distinct state separate from a whole pile of other 'focuses'.... nearly all of which are, as I understand it "out of body".

-Montana


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:59 pm 
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Ted it is a Robert Monroe term and totally different form rote learning memorization. It is what cOsmOnautt said, a complete packet of information. I am asking because I am writing a book using these experiences and want to use the correct language. I am basically going between interchangeable metaphors in the story I am writing so far.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:11 pm 
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Cool...

I've been writing a book for years on my OOBEs... problem is... because I was 11 when I began experiencing OOBEs... the reason and theories behind them has evolved with me. Had I wrote a book 10 years ago... I would be writing one now with a totally different approach. :)

Look forward to reading it.

The language changes but means the same thing... for instance...

The vibrational state is the same as Sleep Paralysis... as is the term Second state and 'the nightmare'... culturally different yet one and the same thing.

The way Tom describes entry into NPMR (using a mantra and noticing) is the same as the 'new' term 'Phasing' coined by Frank Kepple... or 'Active imagination' as coined by C. G. Jung.

'Astral Projection' is the locale II described by Monroe in 'Journeys Out Of The Body' as is 2nd Phase... This takes pace using a perceived body where one can interact with the environment and other 'entities'

Locale 1 and 1st phase are different than 2nd phase in that they seemingly take place in PMR but as a free floating conscious awareness without a percieved body... where you are essentially a 'ghost'. Vision and perception is dim... it is short lived and generally turns into 2nd phase.

Lucid dreaming seems to be a partial yet conscious focus within 2nd phase/locale II/Astral/NPMR that follows/evolves from a non-lucid yet vivid dream.

These are my findings using personal experience and research over the years. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:36 pm 
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Bette,

That is precisely what I said that it was. As I said before:
Quote:
You would receive this 'chunk' of information which you would have to understand gradually as you worked your way through it over time. I personally liken it to a gestalt which is a body of information that means more in total than it does when broken down into individual pieces. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. From the Merriam Webster Dictionary on line:

Definition of GESTALT
: a structure, configuration, or pattern of physical, biological, or psychological phenomena so integrated as to constitute a functional unit with properties not derivable by summation of its parts

Saying that Rote came from rote memorization as I described also comes to the same thing. You memorize or receive, either way you 'acquire', a block of information which you do not comprehend until you work your way through the understanding of it gradually after the fact of acquiring it.

Ted


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:44 pm 
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Ted Vollers wrote:
Yes, that was Robert Monroe's concept of a Rote. I think the concept was based upon rote memorization. That is a mechanical practice of memorization, not necessarily including an understanding of what was memorized. You would receive this 'chunk' of information which you would have to understand gradually as you worked your way through it over time. I personally liken it to a gestalt which is a body of information that means more in total than it does when broken down into individual pieces. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. From the Merriam Webster Dictionary on line:

Definition of GESTALT
: a structure, configuration, or pattern of physical, biological, or psychological phenomena so integrated as to constitute a functional unit with properties not derivable by summation of its parts

Ted
Ted, there is no memorization involved. They are two different things rote memorization and RAM's Rote, as you know. That he called it a Rote is just confusing as it is almost the opposite of rote memorization. It is also not gestalt but if you likening it to that is useful for you while not being wrong of you to think of it that way, it is not what it means really. Yes, I am thinking I am not wrong thinking you have this little detail about RAMs Rote wrong. It's okay either way as it is a way of reading something rather than wrong or right, right?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:25 pm 
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Wasn't the complete metaphor used by RAM "Rote ball". A ball of data (Ted's gestalt, in effect) which was 'tossed' to the recipient, and then 'unravelled', at leisure, as it were. Otherwise known as his "NVC" (Non Verbal Communication), the sort of thing we all do everyday in fact, but mostly without conscious awareness, and distinct from body language.

I think everyone's on the same page here, just with different terms.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:39 pm 
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Bette,

Please read the Wikipedia article on Rote Learning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rote_learning While there is criticism of the article based upon references, the material covers the subject very well. You do not memorize a Rote in Robert Monroe's sense by repeated going over the material and memorizing it. Instead it is presented directly to your non physical mind as a block of information which you memorize instantly as it enters your mind. It is not understood however by you until you work your way through it over a period of time. Just as you may memorize in the PMR conventional sense a block of information by the process of Rote Learning and may over time convert that block of information to something which you understand fully. The reference to a gestalt is to explain that there is an aspect to a Rote of being more than the sum of its parts. When you reach the point that you do in fact fully understand it, you have a greater understanding than of just the individual items of information. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

I say this having in my understanding received such a 'Rote' of information before, probably more than once, and only with time and multiple delvings into that source been able to gradually assimilate it all. That is why I created the Forum, Communication within Consciousness Space. Unfortunately no one was ever interested in taking up the discussion and understanding what Tom and I had been discussing that led me to starting the Forum. It is an important concept for understanding communication with NPMR entities and why they find it difficult to communicate with us in the limited and linear manner of PMR languages. They either provide you with a Rote or a gestalt of information encompassing a great deal of information in a massive and instantaneous dose or they are forced to deal with you on a yes/no communication basis because of your limitations and the limitations of PMR language. Communication could be much more powerful there if you could understand this. Do not force communication on a limited linear language model and you will likely be given a great deal more information but which you must work over time to delve down through the layers like peeling an onion in order to finally comprehend the whole. Modern humans are going even further in the opposite direction by 'tweets' and sound bites and making the assumption that this represents true communication and understanding, just because they have a word or two that they recognize but do not necessarily have the same definitions of the words in common between them. Our children are losing the ability to communicate with written language at a high level where effort is made to use common (to those communicating) definitions of words and use one's words precisely to exchange meanings clearly and accurately.

I encountered something analogous to this in my last year of college where I walked into a class in Kinematics and noted the telltale signs of a test about to begin. A test which I had not heard about and had made no preparations for. So rather than being able to just go into memory and pull out the required formulas, I had to quickly derive the solutions in the sense of working from principles, conservation of energy and momentum, vector force diagrams and such instead of just having the formula at my fingertips. I ended up receiving a score greater than 100% and a note to come see the professor. He talked me up to his friends among the professors and I ended up with an invitation to accept a full fellowship for graduate school through the Ph. D. level where another professor was moving to accept a full professorship. I understood the subject fully but not on the basis of Rote memorization in preparation for the test but rather having the Rote or gestalt of the understanding of the material in my mind, making it available to me when I needed it. This is what a Rote can do for you. It is an extremely powerful method of communication but very much contrary to our approach to communication here in PMR where there is so much, 'yeah man, I gotcha' while in actuality the supposed communicators are using different definitions of the same or similar words and communicating superficially or not at all. That is why video communication or verbal communication is taking the place of the written word. Imprecision and speed are replacing precision of meaning and a slower but more in depth communication. This is being done all the time here on these forums where it is not noticed that homonyms are substituted as in words that are spelled differently and have different meanings but sound the same or are spelled and sound the same but have different meanings. Clearly few use the spell checker function that is available on the BB system. Be careful that I don't put my cane tip down on your toe as I pass by.

Ted


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:17 pm 
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If you say so Ted. I'm using it differently to mean a complete concept known at once. Please don't go back and forth you have better things to do.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:19 pm 
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But Bette, a complete concept known at once is exactly what I am describing.

Ted


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:21 pm 
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Ted Vollers wrote:
But Bette, a complete concept known at once is exactly what I am describing.

Ted
Well then you are using too many words for me. :)
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:05 am 
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Bedeekin wrote:
OK... I've just ordered 'Far Journeys' from Amazon. People always turned me against it, saying it was very different than 'Journeys' and seemed to be more an advert for the Hemisync product. But... that's what I get for listening to other peoples opinions. Thanks Ted and Bette.

The reason I joined this forum was because of a recent experience that involved a strong sense of what you mean Ted. I'll put it down in another thread rather than expain it here. Suffice to say the experience directly followed a weekend reading binge of an ebook version of 'Awakening'. :)


Bedeekin - just keep in mind when you are reading Far Journeys that Bob Monroe's experiences are completely subjective. He processed his NPMR experiences and pattern matched them back into PMR based on his own life experience and ideas. There isn't necessarily anything fundamentally true in his books. His experiences are entertaining but they don't have to match any body elses experiences, and may actually unduly influence you if you don't realize this. He made up an entire set of terms to describe the way he experienced NPR. Rote is one of those terms.


Last edited by Sainbury on Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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