I wasn't sure which subset of the forum this was appropriate for, but since the topic came up in a thread in Spiritual and person growth I'll leave this here.

From Tom's Youtube videos, I remember Tom saying that guides weren't literally individuals; that would be like having a 'personal slave', he said. He said that instead, the system bubbles up guides on demand, interpreted according to the evolutionary needs of the individual. It's the same thing Tom said about how when we meet our relatives in the afterlife, it isn't really them, because they are busy elsewhere, living new lives. But instead it is your relatives from the database - it IS them, but without free will.

However, thynes apparently was diagnosed by Tom a couple of years back with a case of negligent guides, who were afterwards reported by Tom for their poor performance. But this seems to, at first glance, conflict with the idea that guides aren't free will entities.

Now, I can obviously make up a few scenarios in my head where the two ideas come into harmony with one another, but I don't really want to just assume and invent things, however good at that I may be. Is there anybody who knows what I am talking about who can give me a more definitive answer?

My understanding is that things vary. Yes, you do have someone who sometimes acts as your guide or guides. Yes, IUOCs within NPMR act as guides and are in short supply as not everyone is capable or interested. But no, they are not there watching your every move. Some aspects of guidance are not provided by some other IUOC in NPMR but by the Consciousness System itself. It is a fluid situation. As Tom tends to say, guidance 'bubbles up'. I once thought I had a pretty constant group of three. It seems pretty clear that the situation is different now. I don't mind the uncertainty. The answer to your question is basically, all of the above.

Ted

I think what I recall Tom saying in relation to guides being slaves is that we don't have our own personal ones on call, like that, not that they didn't have free will. I think he was talking about if we had our own personal on call always guides that would be like them being slaves.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

I'm thinking it is probably a mix: not all 'guides' are the same. Some appear to be 'pure agency' without a lot of reflection. The arch-angel types come to mind. I've never even tried to access that group, but a variety of writers swear by them. Other 'guides' appear to be the personality left behind by beings that were once incarnate and had developed the skill set necessary to assist with the current situation. Say, if you are studying Jungian psychology and really reaching into it, it seems like Jung is right there, leaning in, helping with the assemblage of the structures that he left behind, but there is nothing new ... it doesn't feel like anything fresh has been built up in that entity's thinking since he left the Earth. Still others appear to have all the attributes of a regular human full of guidance. Take my mother-in-law! <puts on Rodney Dangerfield drag> ...Please!!! Some of the boardies here function as guides at times ... Tom, Ted, others.

Or, using the LCS bubbles 'm up' model, you can say that some of the source material out of which a guide is bubbled up is made up of sentient and evolving beings. ...why not...? Or even a team of these along with other materials. It can happen that any such beings have to function on faith alone that what they are doing is of some use... seemingly on impulse, they act according to a plan that is invisible to them. They have a sense of operating 'within the flow' and may or may not know of the results of their doings. It's a total trip, especially for humans, when they do see actual results of their seemingly flightly and inexplicable behavior. ... throwing some odd and seldom used tool in the trunk on impulse before leaving the house that day and then coming across someone broke down on the freeway and you happen to have the exact tool that is needed to resolve the situation.

Just my understanding at this time,

Montana

IMHO guides would 'appear', when you are ready. Think about sinchronicity in your life. Do you pay attention to it? Do you try to follow it or attempt to understand what is means? Could you recall some unusual or strange things happen to you, and you have no explanation why? Do you have unusual and wise thoughts coming into your mind during meditation? Do you have a premonition once in a while? Do you pay attention to it or dismiss it as a strange thought?

It could be one guide or several of them. Think of them as a your personal interface with LCS, and accept uncertainty of their origin. They do not exist to be your servants or slaves. They are 'next' to you all the time, because you and what we call guides, are part of LCS, we are LCS. But they are not watching you all the time, and waiting for you to snap your fingers to create a magic trick for you. Guides are your helpers, but you have to do your part too. They would knock on your door, metaphorically speaking ;)), and if you are not home (you awareness is not clear enough), guides might come back later. When? Do you home work, exercise your free will, meditate, pay attention to sinchronicity, and learn to be aware of your intent and be open minded. Think about your dreams and some dream characters giving you a good advice, directing or guiding you, or just being friendly and helpful.

Some of them could be more knowledgeable, than others. Some could be more formal, and others would like to make jokes and poke you.

Lena

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'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.

Mine seem to be poking me and also presenting conflicting data. Plus they seem a bit judgmental pushing against my free will so I don't know what's going on. I feel I am making slow progress doing my part while also trying to get as much as possible expending as little as possible, or however Tom put that. I'm a bit irritated "they" would cause family problems to make a point though as that isn't fair to my daughter in her relationship.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Bette,

sometimes I feel the same. It seems they expect more of me, than I can handle. I ask to slow down, but they not always listening to my requests.

Lena

_________________
'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.

Thank you Lena that means a lot to me.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

In my experience the guides are always one step ahead. I will give an example.
When in discussion with them, and I don't understand something they are trying to tell me, I loose contact, or what I have thought of as loosing contact. After a while, I realize I simply need to ask the right question, and the discussion is on again. They are patient, and very understanding towards my human mind.
I think it may be so that they are always there, I am just not attentive and observant enough to notice it. They seem to know me, better than I know myself. The more I think about it, the more I believe they are down right always there, helping.
I have the feeling of working together for so long, that they know exactly how I work. Also, sometimes I feel uncertain of them actually being them, or if they are all a part of me. Sudden fears of being schizophrenic comes to mind.

_________________
Traveling towards the home of high-distilled pure crystalized loosh, to become Love.

That's the question isn't it? I 'talk' to my guides but more often than not I am too afraid that I am just talking to myself, so I don't tend to do it much.

The greatest fear I've ever had in my life was the fear of becoming insane, and it haunted me for a whole Summer. Was very unpleasant. What made it scary was that for an insane person, he does not know he is insane. So how could I tell?

Despite the many experiences I've had of all sorts, I can't help but remain somewhat sceptical, to say the least. And I know it is good to be sceptical, but I doubt it is good to doubt literally everything related to the LCS even existing.

I remember when Monroe found out that INSPEC, his "guide" was really his future self. My guide presents herself as an aspect of me, yet I interact with her in a very objective way. Just because a guide is part of yourself, doesn't mean you're crazy... it just means that "self" is much larger and more complicated than we imagine.

Just think about finding out that one of your friends is another incarnation of yourself... talk about confusing.

Then why did thynes have, according to Tom, negligent guides that were either to be replaced or reprimanded by the Big Cheese?

I really don't have interactive experiences with guides. Stuff just happens or doesn't happen in ways that makes thing either easy or hard and timing is a big part of it. I feel like I make all my own decisions, like that, with no actual conversations other than with myself in my head although I also am sure every thought and action of mine is known by All That Is and is a part of how things happen or don't. Privacy is an illusion. :)
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

I don't take that too literally.

My best interpretation, based on subsequent posts by Tom and Thynes (I can't remember specifics) is that those guides were actually what was best for Thynes at that time (highest probability of lowering entropy), but you only get to see that in hindsight or with a bigger picture. I don't know for sure but that is the general feeling I get.

We don't have all the information so stay open minded and skeptical... Picking one of the possibilities as "the answer" is just locking yourself in a belief. Pseudo knowledge. Why do you want to know? What does your experience say?

Another possible interpretation is that the system isn't perfect. All sorts of things happen.

Maybe they had free will, maybe they didn't.

_________________
Mike

Here is the thread being referred to. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2798&p=4076&hilit=thynes+guides#p4076 Tom did not exactly say they were 'asleep'. Sleep is PMR, not NPMR. Inattentive is a different thing.

As has been said, you simply cannot take everything as fixed in the way that you might think here in PMR. Do not think of a guide to be someone hired to be your nanny. Yes, individual IUOCs in NPMR function as guides and there is always a shortage. No they do no oversee our every move and thought. Yes there is guidance that is not specific to a guide as an individual entity. Things are 'fluid' and as Tom says, guidance can be 'bubbled up' out of that 'fluidity'. Consciousness exists everywhere in the LCS. The Big Computer that is referred to as creating our PMR VR probabilistically and then as we experience it via its VRRE function is not like a great big super computer of here in PMR. TBC is also 'intelligent' and conscious. It follows a program but it does not just follow a program as a PMR super computer would do.

The model is a model to give us handles to 'get hold of' our PMR experience. It is very much like how things work most of the time and and in most ways, but it is not exactly like how things work and does not completely describe things. Without Tom's model, we would just be churning in confusion. Once you understand it however, you kind of let go of every little detail and realize where there is more to it than in 'just' the model.

It is like higher education in graduate school. You learn details, most of which you should have learned at lower levels. But the real purpose is to learn how to think within your particular field, what is significant, what matters within your particular field, what matters in intellectual pursuits in general, how do you contribute new knowledge to your field and in general, how to evaluate things and apply effective criteria to hypotheses to evaluate their credibility and value.

We must in general live with uncertainty. Learn to do it gracefully.

Ted