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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:45 am 
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From another thread:

kroeran wrote:
this whole thing of loyalty to old friends who are negative influences is something I struggle with.

as well as how to manage negative influences from family, and calibrating appropriate involvement

like...there seems to be a different ruleset for...

1) immediate family - parents, siblings, children
2) outer circle of family
3) old friends

and then the ruleset being different for someone who is emotionally robust vs someone in a state of instability

like the ruleset for Tom would be different than for myself lets say, especially when I was in my twenties, very unhappy and trying to figure things out



This rates a thread of its own, IMO.

I'll try to develop the topic a little here.

At any of the three main levels (sub-personal, personal, groups) there can exist ideas/thoughts/emotions/agenda (if you like, 'memes'), which are at cross-purposes to other 'levels' (sub-personal, personal, groups). These may or may not be justified, conscious, , unexamined, open to examination, unfair, even downright toxic.

A person outside of that meme is more likely to see with relative objectivity the problems bumping memes create ... and the general tack of this thread would be: what are the various kinds of issues and how to manage them...?

In general, of course, you try to draw attention to those (I'm really starting to personally have some discomfort with this expression:) relatively 'evolved' (ugh) structures and processes operating the memes and ignoring the worser ones, while offering competing sub-meme components, to, hopefully, be later incorporated. (Sorry to sound so abstract, but it seems to sum up the issue that way).

Personally, I have been in the position of supporting actor in unreeling dramas the primary theme of which is disputation between 'Wrong' and 'Wrong' (as an Iranian Imam once described the war between Iraq and the US, 1990 or so). And there may be many separate currents of 'wrongness' operating ... selfish or anti-social motives, inherited belief system structures, real psychological disorder, lack of guidance or good maps or sense of destination, etc etc...

Sometimes I find myself thinking: ".... M'okay. What might be the least horrid result that can be brought about here?"

That sounds just terrible. Yickch!~

Montana


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:21 pm 
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I would say that there are too many factors to develop a general list of how to handle situations in these categories. Handle them as you feel best at the time is my advice.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:36 am 
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Maybe there are no "negative" social influences, any more than there are "negative" exam questions (the ones you answer incorrectly).

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:08 am 
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Man wrote:
Maybe there are no "negative" social influences, any more than there are "negative" exam questions (the ones you answer incorrectly).


perhaps a more TOEish word would be "entropic" rather than "negative"

an example of an entropic exam question would be...

"yesterday, you gave 2 economists a wedgie, and today you gave 3 economists a wedgie...how many economists did you give a wedgie to this week?"

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:11 am 
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Lumpy wrote:
I would say that there are too many factors to develop a general list of how to handle situations in these categories. Handle them as you feel best at the time is my advice.


care must be taken for great precision regarding imprecision.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:43 am 
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Montana wrote:
Sometimes I find myself thinking: ".... M'okay. What might be the least horrid result that can be brought about here?"

That sounds just terrible. Yickch!~

Montana


I think Tom's primary response to this would be "At least he cares to try to help" ...I seem to recall him saying/writing this in some similar context

So, you trying, forming an intent to help, is 99% of the story.

As far as the rest of it...effectiveness in the situation, one tool I have used is to stay rigidly within the meme of the target "helpee", so you try to find a plausible logic link that directs them in a profitable direction, but you explain it from an entirely selfish logic tree.

For example, when I see two young analysts feuding, I might point out to them that it is in their self interest to rather form an alliance, as power tends to gravitate toward integrated cooperative groups, rather than lone wolves.

Of course, PMR is set up to intentionally subject FWAUs to interpersonal challenges, so at some point, you may decide that interference is not always worth the investment, especially regarding run of the mill chaos. There is of course ever the impulse to try to insert order where there is disorder, which I fully get.

I believe, if one follows the yellow brick road to the end, the most powerful and effective deployment of your Intent would be to teach people, who are ready, how to connect with their own personal NPMR feedback, in culturally appropriate venues, such as MBTOE forum, which is set up for this purpose.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:23 am 
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You do your best to help or support, of course, with their best interest in mind. You cannot change anybody, and cannot live their life for them. Each of us have to make mistakes and learn our lessons on our own.

Lena

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:24 pm 
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Sometimes I try to keep things abstract so as to allow the broadest number of approaches ... sometimes that ends up sounding a little vacuous though...

Think: Being tasked with support / repair of a psyche (such that under stress the executive function is abandoned to one of any number of sub-personalities, some of which may be mean, infantile, manipulative, needy, or, occasionally, authoritative or even competent in some situations) and that person manages to get into legal difficulty with another similar individual facing somewhat similar issues and personality shortcomings. Both have currents of 'meaning well' in their psyches, both can be nasty or predatory once they come under stress (it might be bills, it might be the flu, it might be concern for their reputation or self image, it might be 'old tapes' etc). ...and these two both having their interactions set in famial, social and business milieu that are not dramatically less dysfunctional that they are, and neither is institutionalized and both are in possession of the idea that they are perfectly sane.

But this is not meant to refer concrete issues... the thread is meant to be abstract ... dealing with ideas rather than concrete issues.

<Hands on hips/> What I really want, of course, is a protocol of simple solutions that will work on every occasion, that's all~ </hands>

Montana


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:50 pm 
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Isn't that where understanding that most people are doing the best they can with what they have to work with comes in?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:49 pm 
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Nobody is perfect, and everybody makes mistakes. I would see it as a task to learn, that I have to dissolve my attachment to a desire to make others to be better, nice, react with no fear and etc. I would try to remember as often as I could, that I can change myself only. I would look into a fear. What fear do I have? What fear another person does have? It helps not to be angry, when you are aware, that this is one's fear making him/her behave oddly. I would examine my intent all the time, to become aware of it and my honest interest behind it.

When we change ourselves, we change our environment, and those around us will notice it sooner or later. Creating peaceful environment is only a way how we could influence others. Observing our expectations of others and ourselves, our personal behavior, our demandes is an opportunity to learn about our ego, fear, and etc. In a demanding time all of that is not easy. I would look for a pattern of events, i.e. actions could be different, but a main theme would be the same. As soon as you could see a repeating theme, it could be your answer to all your question, because you could stop reacting the same way to that, and the endless chain could be brocken.

I am telling this from my experience. This is tiring and it feels, that traps are everywhere. Think about repeating nightmares. This is the same only in PMR brought daylight. As soon as you can see a problem, all monsters are gone, and you don't have to fight with them anymore.

This is not my advice to you or anybody else, Montana. My thoughts on a subject only.

Lena

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:21 am 
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I find, that maybe the more evolved beings... Have to develop this nak, to get nasty, dig in deep. Siffle through disorder at an increasingly higher serfactions. I mean in reality is in the biz of some wierd shit, like starving, torture, killn.
Maybe as one evolves, hes the one who has to tell lil Timmy hes dieing of cancer, the one who burns down an obssed house.
crawles out of sewer like a man rodent.

On the topic of Memes, more presices:::::
Its like data in spread sheets, colapsing caculation space. Disorder breeds in sub routines. Skewing data sets and based in easy familiarity. Assimulating your selfn.

I think the only solution is to learn to enjoy it, Going around one, Getting out of one, Or managing one, Or Destroying one.
But enjoy it in the way one would enjoy training for a cage fight.

I think the triky est part is to know when to... avoid,tear one up, find grace in one ect.
THis process is an unpleasant one tho...


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:39 am 
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kroeran wrote:
Lumpy wrote:
I would say that there are too many factors to develop a general list of how to handle situations in these categories. Handle them as you feel best at the time is my advice.


care must be taken for great precision regarding imprecision.


You messing with me again? lol

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:40 pm 
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Lena wrote:
Observing our expectations of others and ourselves, our personal behavior, our demandes is an opportunity to learn about our ego, fear, and etc. In a demanding time all of that is not easy. I would look for a pattern of events, i.e. actions could be different, but a main theme would be the same. As soon as you could see a repeating theme, it could be your answer to all your question, because you could stop reacting the same way to that, and the endless chain could be brocken.


In his book The Landscape of History, John Lewis Gaddis compares the research methods of history with those of the hard sciences. He holds that certain hard sciences are historical: those that rely on virtual replicability as opposed to actual replicability as the standard for verification. That is, sciences like astronomy and evolutionary biology cannot--unlike chemistry--actually replicate the processes that would verify their propounded theories. They therefore rely on narratives drawn from analysis of surviving structures, as well as speculation and inference.

There is a chapter comparing history with chaos theory. One example he gives is that, like chaos theory, historical narratives may illustrate fractals (self-similarity across scale) evident in human actions and that this can be most obviously seen in biography. Here is an excerpt:

Quote:
. . .biographers tend to regard as character those elements of personality that remain constant, or nearly so, throughout. . .Like practitioners of fractal geometry, biographers seek patterns that persist as one moves from micro- to macro-levels of analysis, and back again.
. . .
It follows from this that the scale across which we seek similarity need not be chronological. Consider the following incidents in the life of Stalin between 1929 and 1940, arranged not by dates but in terms of ascending horror. Start with the parrot he kept in a cage in his Kremlin apartment. The dictator had the habit of pacing up and down for long periods of time, smoking his pipe, brooding, and occasionally spitting on the floor. One day the parrot tried to mimic Stalin's spitting. He immediately reached into the cage with his pipe and crushed the parrot's head. A very micro-level event, you might well say, so what?

But then you learn that Stalin, while on vacation in the Crimea, was once kept awake by a barking dog. It turned out to be a seeing-eye dog that belonged to a blind peasant. The dog wound up being shot, and the peasant wound up in the Gulag. And then you learn that Stalin drove his independently minded second wife, who tried to talk back to him, into committing suicide. And that he arranged for Trotsky, who also talked back, to be assassinated halfway around the world. And that he arranged as well the deaths of as many of Trotsky's associates that he could reach, as well as the deaths of hundred of thousands of other people who never had anything to do with Trotsky. And that when his own people began to talk back by resisting the collectivization of agriculture, he allowed some fourteen million of them to die from the resulting starvation, exile, or imprisonment.

Again, there's self-similarity across scale, except that the scale this time is a body count. It's a fractal geometry of terror. Stalin's character extended across time and space, to be sure, but what's most striking about it is its extension across scale: the fact that his behavior seemed much the same in large matters, small matters, and most of those that lay in between.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:15 pm 
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s.lareck,

I have only one problem with this example. According to some biographies Stalin had a paranoid schizophrenia. He was a monster, a tyrant, and he was a horrible human being. Based on his personality could we say, that looking at a paranoid schizophrenic is right way to find out about human behavior?

Lena

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:07 am 
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Lena wrote:
ased on his personality could we say, that looking at a paranoid schizophrenic is right way to find out about human behavior?


That's a good point Lena, this is perhaps not a good example of how someone might notice and change patterns in their life.

But I do think it is a good example of how someone who refuses/fails to notice and change patterns in his life can perpetuate certain of those patterns across his life. And I think that holds true whether or not you have a mental illness.

Plus, part of his cruelty resulted from his paranoid schizophrenia and megalomania, but part also was due to plain and simple ego and fear--which are all too human.

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