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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:45 pm 
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there is this from Tom on karma

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2380&p=2723&hilit=+karma#p2723

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:39 pm 
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It seems the feedback comes from interacting in PMR in accordance with the rule set, whether it be material stuff or other people. All of the incoming data is the point of being here, we get the feedback that gives us experience. We decide what is best to do from past and present feedback. Feedback comes with the data, this is my view. Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:28 pm 
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fast wrote:
Yes this seems to be true when it is about our image, but sometimes our real selves are just defending truth, our truth from our experiences. fear still can exist here but it seems to diminish with the absence of ego. Hence spiritual growth. Fred searching for truth
Fred,sorry.

I give up on talking with you.

Lena

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:03 am 
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Lena wrote:
fast wrote:
Yes this seems to be true when it is about our image, but sometimes our real selves are just defending truth, our truth from our experiences. fear still can exist here but it seems to diminish with the absence of ego. Hence spiritual growth. Fred searching for truth
Fred,sorry.

I give up on talking with you.

Lena
I understand Lena, no need to be sorry. Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:28 am 
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Man wrote:
The point is this: if the system knew when to give feedback by itself, it would know in advance which actions were desirble and so on. Then Tom's model of IOUC:s whose purpose it is develop the system doesn't work, because there is no need to develop what is already known. I'm not saying that.

I'm saying feedback must also be individuated, or connected to the concept of karma - connected to atleast two people. That means, for example, that it isn't really repeatable and it changes over time.


The system perhaps knows what desirable actions look like, but "the game" is to figure out how to get another unit of individuation to entrain to this and develop syntropy/quality, through the feedback mechanism, for some higher macro purpose (possibly merely to fill the time ; - ) )

Existence may just be a very complicated version of Trading Places (the film), trying things out to see what happens

I think feedback is pretty simple...the intent is measured by a mechanical algorithm, and is positively correlated to the other centeredness of the intent->

1) PMR Effectiveness (secondary issue of translating intent into PMR results)
->decision->action->result

2) NPMR Quality delta (primary issue of developing quality)

->PMR medium term emotional feedback->values at mental level->informs future decision-making

->QoC delta/tick->QoC level/stock (attracts good things/circumstances)->Intent(general MO, increases propensity, creates a framework to form good intents)->intent(specific - good intent is ironically very effective at creating good results and environments)

Its like the monkey and the coconut trap...letting go of the banana, releases the banana

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:04 am 
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This seems like over elaboration. Feedback comes principally from the rule set of PMR and from those with whom we interact.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:44 am 
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fast wrote:
Lena wrote:
fast wrote:
Yes this seems to be true when it is about our image, but sometimes our real selves are just defending truth, our truth from our experiences. fear still can exist here but it seems to diminish with the absence of ego. Hence spiritual growth. Fred searching for truth
Fred,sorry.

I give up on talking with you.

Lena
I understand Lena, no need to be sorry. Fred searching for truth
I kind of doubt that Fred, and you have no idea what or why Lena feels as she does so you know not of her needs. She isn't being sorry she feels an empathy for you most likely. Keep searching...
Love
Bette

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:49 am 
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Ted Vollers wrote:
This seems like over elaboration. Feedback comes principally from the rule set of PMR and from those with whom we interact.

Ted
Feedback is as simple and as important as the expression on others face due to our choices (words/actions) which means face to face interaction or I suppose at least two way video is important too.
Love
Bette

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:22 am 
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I looked for some videos to demonstrate what I mean:

Self-assembly:
http://youtu.be/DUa5g5JZR5s
http://youtu.be/81qHa3gJB3E

The feedback doesn't come from the "rules", it comes from the "programs" - in Tom's model that's us. The components are programmed to interact in certain ways - attract in certain conditions, repell in others. Maybe feedback is like these forces. Maybe karma is like the inertia and position of these pieces. This is why development must happen through interaction.

I think it is beautiful if karma and feedback works like this. We "fit" together by adjusting ourselves until our forces attract.

We're not beaten out according to a ruleset like a blacksmith makes a helmet.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:42 pm 
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Johan,

Feedback from the rules comes in the general form: "hey stupid, get in out of the rain". There are consequences to ignoring feedback such as this so we gradually learn from that feedback.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:26 pm 
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Well I don't know Bette it seems like I have a pretty good idea , but who knows maybe I don't Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:31 pm 
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Fred, i don't think you do. Keep searching!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:38 pm 
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LOL!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:16 pm 
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Ted Vollers wrote:
This seems like over elaboration. Feedback comes principally from the rule set of PMR and from those with whom we interact.

Ted


what is your interpretation of how intent connects to entropy reduction...is this not outside of the PMR ruleset?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:16 am 
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You, and all of us, as an IUOC are outside the PMR rule set. Only our experience here in PMR is subject to the PMR rule set. This is only a small fraction of our total experience which is mostly as an integral part of AUM and a smaller part, but larger than here in PMR, as our experience in NPMR. It is just more intense and effective here in modifying our selves as the digital beings that we are in this high intensity interaction experience. Our Intent is inherent to our IUOC digital mind/real being as an interface to, a way to characterize, our true nature. We do not and can not actually know the details of how our Intent is modified by entropy reduction by our interactions and how it exists as effectively a digital computer program.

I imagine, as an extrapolation from PMR science and the concept of neural networks modeled digitally within computers, that the adjusting parameters of something not unlike a neural network are fine tuned by those interactions. Just like the neural nets used in the controllers of soccer playing robots that I have described on the board are tuned by actual play and produced better soccer playing robots that the robots that were controlled by computers conventionally programed by humans using conventional artificial intelligence approaches. Check this out: http://wiki.my-big-toe.com/index.php/Intent For more information on soccer playing robots, here is the earliest link that a search on the board brings up for 'soccer playing robots'. There are links from that post and I know that more followed with time on the Internet. viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3074&p=7942&hilit=soccer+playing+robots#p7942

Ted


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