Just an image here:

There are artsy things that in states are called 'mobiles':
http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/v ... a&fr=moz35

You can imagine a mobile with other mobiles hanging off it. If you extend the idea indefinitely, you can see what a complex sytsem that becomes.

Now add in the idea that the pull of gravity can vary in both strength and direction across the region that the mobile exists in....

And now add in the idea that various pieces or sub-mobiles may have a will of their own and decide to move in some particular direction, or attempt to....

OK, that's the image, and the image is a metaphor. (Note that it is somewhat fractal-like in structure). You see that there are an indefinitely large number of subsystems. Motion in any one of them inevitable will have its effect on the whole operation. This effect is not immediately transmitted through out the whole thing though. That is, by definition, it is a composition of semi-discrete systems.

If we use that image as a model, we get things like:

A personal subsystem says "Hoo! This chocolate is awesome! Let's eat the whole 2 pounds!!!" A larger consciousness system relative to your own, say, your family, which includes Mom and Dad and a few grandparents, know that this would not be a good idea.... but you've spirited away the chocolate to the third floor when everyone is busy with other things and are free to experiment with your ideas. And you think 'hmm! I like this plan of my subsystem! Think I'll run with it...!'



Just a model~

Montana

As Chogyam Trungpa astutely points out, religion is merely three things

1) a teaching (Tom's media)
2) a practise (Tom's guidance on meditation, PSI, intent and diet)
3) a community (the open question, and if virtual is sufficient)

there are hundreds of religions and thousands of sects, and I would assert that it is impossible to summarize and dismiss the array of religions with the deterministic box you may have put them in.

practise and community give the teaching effectiveness and penetrative power, meme-ian legs, and the hunger for religious experience is evident in the absolute nonsense millions will put up with to get their religious hit.

a teaching without a practise or a community, is like DNA without a body

I believe to move forward we need to make peace with religion, and accept that MBTOE is a religion.

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Man, when I spoke of "the system" I am talking about the Larger Consciousness System. That includes other IUOC's/beings/people. It is everything.

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Mike

The Larger Consciousness System sends feedback sometimes through people and sometimes through hashbrowns which required people too, btw. :)
Love
Bette

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All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

True, I meant the mainstream versions christianity/judaism/islam. Might not be completely fair, but for argument's sake it makes sense.


That's like saying all the email you get is from "the internet".


I contend that it doesn't, any more than "the internet" writes on forums.

But the "through people" part is interesting. I don't have a theory what causes this or why sometimes things seem magic somehow.

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Johan

Yes, exactly! The e-mail you get comes from the Internet.

You just get the data to interpret and do the best you can, you don't get the source of the data.

To extend the computer metaphor with today's buzz words, the LCS is like cloud computing. You don't know what is in the cloud or how it works, you just interface with it. It may be a very consistent interface, but an interface nonetheless.

Based on your experience, can you see it be any other way?

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Mike

I'm not arguing that there can't be a hypothetical structure that allows feedback to be sent down-stream. Something fractal could be imagined where it works like this. Like - "over-self" - and so on. I'm saying, it would have implications for the overall incentives and purpose.

For me, any spiritual/cosmological idea needs to be explainable in its most simple form. Refering to "the system" as something that reaches into the lives of people and does what the traditional God does, requires explanation. If it is so easy for "the system" to determine what is good, why not just adjust the QoC variable directly to 100%? Job done.

(Tom's answer (like Ted's earlier reply) would be: QoC is not a quantifiable variable, it is more like a program that self-modifies. Each modification is tested in simulations that we experience in our lives. The reason it needs to be tested is because the effectiveness of the modificaiton is impossible to know in advance.)

And that's what I'm saying, and also some stuff about karma.


I would say it comes from a person via the internet.

For example, if I start writing insults to inactive email-adresses - no feedback.


I can figure the source out based on when and how the feedback comes. Without knowing the reason for the feedback, how could I adjust myself?

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Johan

Why do you feel that MBT is a religion rather than a scientific theory of reality?

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I eat ego's for breakfast!
Sincerely, Ego.

If you write insults to inactive email addresses you aren't writing to any sort of useful interface. You can still do it, but you quickly realize that there is little value in doing so because you don't get much feedback (perhaps an undelivered error message from some e-mail server, but that is probably pushing the metaphor a bit too far).

You can generally distinguish between different interfaces based on when and how the feedback comes. It is especially easy in PMR because of how tight and consistent the rule-set is. Uncle Fred looks like Uncle Fred due to biology etc. In NPMR this is harder.

Consistent interfaces are very important for learning, growth, and adjusting oneself.

According to MBT that's exactly why PMR was invented to begin with. The tighter rule-set allowed for a more consistent interface for IUOC's which allowed for better traction/learning/lowering of entropy.

But remember that it is just a VR. You don't get to look from "outside" of consciousness and take a peak at those reality cells flipping from state to state. You don't get to look at the source of the data.

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Mike

its two mints in one

a teaching (via various media)+a practise (noun) +community (virtual or otherwise)=religion

it is also but separately, a scientific theory

they overlap due to the convergence of left and right hemispheric approaches, not only a grand Theory of Everything, scientifically of the small and large, but as well, a grand Theory that merges and resolves the conflict between the pragmaticism of the left hemisphere and frontal cortex, and the poetry of the right hemisphere.

NPMR is not actually from the poetic side...it is straightforward science

experience with NPMR however, from NDEs or apparently from OBEs, appears to be highly correlated with this poetic element of agape love, which is the indirect link between big science and religion.

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Tom and I agree that we do not wish for My Big TOE to become the basis for a religion at some time in the future. We are neither anti-religious. However we do not wish to found one either. Here are some excerpts from Tom's books expressing his thoughts relative to MBT and religion.Hopefully this will illustrate the confirmation of what I say here.

Ted

Yeah but if only teaching, practice, and community result in a religion then many things could be considered religions; For example long distance running. People that long distance run may converse and teach each other how to develop their running skills, practice those skills, and come together as a community to run, but running is not a religion. You don't think that considering MBT a religion under those three things is a little vague?

Besides the vagueness, religion constitutes a set of beliefs, and MBT is all about not getting trapped in beliefs as religions tend to do here.

_________________
I eat ego's for breakfast!
Sincerely, Ego.

Ra, I mean Amen (same thing). Randy is stuck in thinking religion is required.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

When you live a religion, which means reading the teaching, applying the practices, associating with the community, you experience how little actual belief plays a role, especially regarding the more mystical religions, which tend toward experientialism, empiricism.

Further, to think belief has no role in TOEism is simply not true...I would assert.

The teaching to strive for non-belief, is itself a belief, albeit a powerful one. Everything one adopts as truth, or probable, that you have not personally checked out, is a belief, most certainly to the extent that a Buddhist or Taoist have beliefs.

When one refers to a teaching, this implies a metaphysical, philosophical or psychological lifestyle model. It is a good point of clarification that you raise.

It may be that this false belief that TOEism is not a religion, is actually a profitable delusion, that I should leave alone.

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Randy,

Is that why you insist on calling it "TOEism"? To me, that is you hinting that this is a religion. I don't think anyone else uses that term because (as per the wishes of Tom that Tes quoted above) we don't want to go down that road.

Furthermore, teachings are not beliefs. MBT is mostly a model, a map, a theory.

We are all full to the brim of beliefs, due to our fears. If you are not careful it is very easy to get MBT mixed in with your beliefs, which can lead to a whole other set of problems.

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Mike