Hello everyone.

Lately I have been reading Chögyam Trungpa's 'Cutting through Spiritual Materialism' - where I came about this passage:



So I was pondering the question whether or not I should somehow "seek out" a spiritual teacher or friend as Trungpa said.

Basically this is a question I have been carrying with me for a long time and seemed to have answered several times. Quite a while back I was initiated as a Vedic monk and lived with a so-called spiritual community for about a year. That was the time it took for me at that moment to realize that this was neither a "community" nor that it was spiritual, but that the teacher we (a rather small group of five students in person and about 20 on the internet) gathered around was a psychotic sociapath. Some years after I left this "sangha" the whole thing turned into a shroom-bdsm-sex-cult, which although sad and tragic for those involved - reassured me of the correct step to leave this chapter of my life behind and learn the lessons connected to that.

Hence I am of course extremely skeptical of any organized spiritual or religious group, with or without a teacher. But still the ideal of a "real" teacher, one without ego-issues and hidden agendas, a true bodhisattva one could say, should or would be a very challenging and thus helpfull ally in wielding through the nets of ego that hinder one's sight.

I have been to another community about two years ago, here in Berlin, who are studying under Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, a Bön-Teacher. And I only went there once, because I found their behaviour towards the lama who came for a dharma-lecture very offensive. Which brings about another problem of contemporary organized spirituality: Often the teachers that are the heads of some lineage do not reside at one place or at least not at the ones in close proximity of the place one lives. So there basically just remains a community of people who ascribe to themselves to be followers of somebody which brings about a lot of nasty politics and spiritual materialism. Randy mentioned Trungpa's Shambala-lineage in another post somewhere on the forum - and I suspect that these problems are prevalent there as well. I found a center of them here in Berlin but I can't see a reason to visit them. For basically I do not need a buddhistic sangha. I would simply appreciate a low entropy individual withouth any affliction what so ever, without personal, spiritual or religious dogma...

But this just raises more and more questions: Is it not that way, that if the student is ready, the teacher will come? If you are looking for a teacher aren't you just finding someone who reflects what you project out as "spiritual qualities"? Even if some spiritual advancement has been made and discernment is getting better: Aren't we still prone to fall for different traps when associating with such persons? Who can even reward anyone of being "spiritually advdanced" - and hence a bona fide teacher? If it isn't organizations - which is always the wrongest direction in which to go - then how to find anyone? And wouldn't a truly developed seeker just blend in with the crowd not standing out in any way and - of course - not "showing off" his allegedly advanced realization?

I know that I basically answer my question myself. That it is a bad idea to stick to that phantasized ideal of a spiritual teacher. But I would really appreciate the thoughts and views of you on this subject matter.

For my problem is a very specific one: One could say, and for good reason: "Just stick to the forums. Pose your questions. Tom, Ted and all the other members will do their best to help you and each other along the way - if they can assist. And just keep on meditating, read the books you feel are helpfull and act out of love etc. etc."
Basically this is a very sober and realistic approach. But: Somehow I am struggling to overcome my attachment to this "person" - to my ego.

Yesterday I was standing outside and not particularly thinking of anything special when I realized: "A hell lot of your thoughts just cruise about you. Who you are. What you do. What you want to do. How you want to improve. etc. etc." And if I simply read books, the forums, meditate and interact with those around me - I can still manage to wear a mask, to filter out all that stuff, that my ego doesn't want anybody to notice, so that I can hold up my spiritual seeker image.

Of course I know that in this case I do make progress and it shows to me as well as to others. But somehow I simply feel that having someone around in person, who can see through these masks, should I wear them, and smack it into my face as soon as I try to pretend or get all puffed up - or what have you - would be very helpful. Someone who will not fall for my tricks and rhetoric and simply doesn't care about what games I might play.

I am not expecting this person to take any burdens off of me - but rather to remind me, to show me where the dirt is, so that I can get my shovel and dig through it.

Well, then again I think: "What about simply trying as hard and good as you do and let experience, reflection and meditation take care of it." Somehow I haven't quite found an answer I can really live with. Or maybe I just don't want to see it...

Hopefully, this makes some kind of sense to someone around here. ;) Looking forward to your views! :)

Thanks!

_________________
"Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world."

- Dao de jing, 1.

I do not think i really agree with that post, for one thing humans are virtual we get data from them in PMR., just an interface with the LCS. We can also get data from other sources outside of PMR. I call these knowings downloads of sorts, i also think it is very possible we began to become aware of our nature all on our own and with nudges from the LCS. I guess you could call the LCS a friend, just my view here. We are here to interact so yes we should seek out data exchange this is why we are here to interact in PMR to get the feedback to learn to grow to evolve to become more. Love if you will. Find a way that best suits you to evolve, do not get stuck in someone else's views or metaphors so much. It is good to be open, not so good as to get stuck in someones teachings, this is what i try and practice. Sabby

Great post Nemo. This is my humble and limited take...

There is an illusion that we need help to get into the game. An illusion that we need to get to some point along our path where we can really begin our spiritual journey and begin being fully connected with the process of evolution, growth, love, etc. The truth is that we are already fully engaged in the process. There is no place, or state, or landmark that we need to get to first. We are already in the heart of the process. The point of the game is not necessarily to arrive at some point at which we are more spiritual or highly evolved; the point is to experience the process (struggles and joys) that take place along the way. That process, the experience, is the point and destination.

The problem with spiritual teachers is that people frequently hold the concepts and ideas that come from the teacher too tightly. Everything must be held loosely and will at some point have to be set down as growth occurs. Spiritual teachers should be (are) temporary guideposts that can help us along our own unique path. They can also slow things down, depending on how confused they are and how tightly or loosely we hold their guidance.

There is only one way to the Truth: through self. There is no other way. We are each in our own unique glass bubble. The glass is stained with ego, fear, beliefs, limited experience, etc. The only way to see things more clearly, as they actually might be, is to work on self. We are the only ones that can clean our own glass. Everything else (spiritual teachers, books, lectures, groups, etc) can only act as guideposts to keep us moving forward. Too often people stop at the guidepost and think that they have arrived at the destination. The state of experiencing the process of evolution... trying to grow toward love, IS the point. The only thing that we need to do is to do our best to engage the process. Being a motivated and humble student of the process is the "destination". Spiritual teachers can be useful along the way as guideposts, but they can never truly show us Truth. They can only point us in the general direction. We have to do all of the hard work ourselves.

My experience is that a true spiritual teacher will not point to him or herself as the way to the Truth, but will instead point you in the direction of "you". I am my own way to the Truth, and at the same time, I am the limitation that prevents me from seeing the Truth. That is the intended process. It is no mistake. You are a fractal like expression of AUM (all-that-is, source, God, us, etc) experiencing a unique and useful path that ultimately benefits the whole... no single, physical, spiritual teacher required. Let the system be your ultimate spiritual teacher, then you will see bits and chunks of guidance being tossed at you from a variety of sources.

Again, just my limited take on it all.

_________________
-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"

Tom has described before and I have reported to you that spirituality as your intent or growth as your intent is not necessary. It is built into the nature of our Virtual Reality that blundering cluelessly through our VR experience in PMR will much more often than not produce positive results in terms of lowering your entropy as an IUOC. The system is simply designed to work that way. If you could understand Tom's model as described in his books or as written up on the Wiki, even intellectually, you could see that this is inherent in the design. You don't need any other teacher than noticing and reacting to the feedback that you automatically receive from the other IUOCs with whom you interact and the system itself. If you understand the principle that free will is necessary to the consciousness of an IUOC and in fact, to AUM itself, and act/interact based upon that principle so as to not diminish the free will of another other than to protect your own or that of another who cannot protect themselves, you are then headed in the right direction. This really gives you everything that you need. You don't have to think in terms of acting to improve your QoC or to express or become love. Act according to the principle and you need not be concerned for the metaphors of the English language words. The principle is simpler to interpret and more clear than metaphors in the English language. Eventually you can internalize the understanding of the model at the being level and identify with yourself as the IUOC experiencing PMR as an educational and developmental process and the other aspects automatically occur. At least so is my opinion.

Ted

Sabby, I agree with you. Quoting Trungpa above was not intended to show any sort of appreciation for this particular view of his. I merely stumbled upon this question in his book and just quoted the whole passage here. Apart from dreams, synchonicities, LCS-nudges of all kinds I know from personal experience that there are different styles of guidance at work all the time. Maybe I should have made that clear...




That's a great way of putting it. Thanks. :)



You see, Ted - there is that egoism that I was referring to above: "I have to do everything I can to be as good I can..." And in the process throw sticks between my legs... :D Thank you for that cooler.



Well, I am at it... ;) I read MBT twice, hung around in the forums and watched a whole lot of the lectures... At the moment I try to let that settle in, so that I can start the second round... Seems to me as if your earlier impression of me has not really changed - in which you rightly so assumed that I were just talking about stuff I didn't want... But some time has passed since then. I don't know why - but for some reason I want to let you know, that I am taking "this" seriously... ;)

_________________
"Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world."

- Dao de jing, 1.

I have something similar. "I need to figure out the mold, then I need to conform to it, and then I'll be free ..."

It is profitable to an extent, but it is probably wrong.

_________________
Johan

Nemo,

I am not posting in reaction to your history here. That would be too difficult to keep up with and constantly in mind to base every post on the past. Too much goes on for me to do that. I post in reaction to what I read in your immediate post in terms of what I feel is missing in the viewpoint expressed. Or perhaps not so much what is missing but what would nudge you towards what I would consider to be a better viewpoint and understanding of My Big TOE. You bemoan the need of a teacher and spiritual community and I think that you do not truly need one other than the principles Tom teaches and the feedback from the PMR VR experience and the LCS. You think in terms of applying various metaphorical teachings of various teachers and Tom to your life as in perhaps becoming love and how to interpret them all into your behavior. I think that you could find more guidance, more easily interpreted, in terms of the principles regarding free will. I think that in a being level understanding of Tom's model, you would have an understanding of these other aspects of Tom's teachings, and that you would, with your level of concern, move gradually and automatically to that being level understanding from an intellectual level understanding that was complete, as part of my impression of you. Thus I said what I did.

Ted

Nemo,

IMHO. Only your own experience and feedback can decrease on increase your entropy level. Spirituality is another metaphor for this process. Be open minded, humble, learn to be aware of your intent, accept any feedback as a learning opportunity to understand your feelings, emotions and intent. If you think, that you have to get an extra help, meditate and be open to whatever comes to you in meditation. Pay atention to sinchronicty, this is your personal road sign on a path. Everything is inside, and a path of others might be crossing with yours, gurus make no exception, but your have to walk on your own. Otherwise you are not progressing, but staying still.

Lena

_________________
'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.

I still find the "being a good person" not as easy as not being a bad person and go that direction with choices. I think.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

But, according to the story... The Buddha himself, after trying a number of teachers for years, eventually abandoned all others teaching styles and set off alone, where he eventually ..... well I guess you know the story...


...anyway, as Ted says, the feedback mechanism makes EVERY SINGLE PERSON that you meet, a teacher.

_________________
LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

Thank you all for your replies.

I guess this whole "I need a teacher"-thing expresses some kind of insecurity paired with perfectionism.... (and isn't perfectionism in itself not insecurity?)

The concept of a "spiritual" teacher seems to formalize natural processes far too much and in the process a lot of projections take place.

I will substitute my need for that extra portion guidance and reflection with the I ching and stick to deepening my understanding and realization of MBT - and let my interactions and roadsigns in PMR be my teachers...

Thanks! :)

_________________
"Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world."

- Dao de jing, 1.