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Discussion and Explanation of the Writings of Tom Campbell: The Paradigm Changes Here

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:00 pm 
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It's hard to believe it has been 4 1/2 years since I read MBT and joined the forum. I got frustrated at Toms advise to meditate and figure it out so I read the forum and then half assed some meditation in my lazy boy and listened to some binarual beats. I progressed quickly this way to what I guess would be the level I was at in past incarnations. I entered into some altered states that I found curious. I searched around for descriptions of 3d black space and stumbled upon the book "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, an Unusually Hardcore Dharma Book" by Daniel Ingram. MCTB In it he explained the Jhanas and explained the 5th jhana Boundless Space
I was hooked...I read the whole thing twice. It was a stage based approach to meditation and progress to "enlightenment" There is a chapter with 30 different definitions/approaches to what enlightenment entails. It really appealed to my geeky side and project management inclinations. It also seemed to be an extremely fast way to achieve "enlightenment". It is a western written version (and more) of Mahasi Sayadaw (Burmese monk) book The Progress of Insite which is based off of older texts like The Vimuttimagga (Path of Freedom)
It made sense, that is, if you want to know about meditation look to Buddhism and if you want to progress, look to teachers that are pumping out enlightened folks. Of course the problem is always in identifying these teachers. Daniel Ingram is a full time ER doctor in Alabama/Mississippi but so kindly runs a website forum much like this one. I am trying to cross pollinate the two as it seems synergistic to have a model of the greater reality as well a hardcore meditative practice site as well. On the dharmaoverground forum there are many different meditators doing different practices at different levels. There are of course egos and BS especially since it has an "open enlightenment" philosophy which can bring this out in some people. Still it is refreshing to speak to people who are ahead of you and can give practical advice.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:34 am 
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This is very intriguing for me. I had just recently finished the last book in my reading queue and started to look for something new. I have also been struggling greatly with my meditation practice lately (it seems I have backslid a bit). I think this is just what I needed, as I do not have any sort of structure to my practice (other than trying to sit down twice a day for at least 20 minutes and repeat a mantra), and a bit of frustration has set in.

Thanks for bringing this up and cross-pollinating.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:54 pm 
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If the focus of your meditation is a fixed thing it is called Samatha or Concentration meditation. Mantra, or concentration meditation will get you to the Jhanas/altered states.
If the focus of your meditation is a transitory thing it is called Vippassana or Insite meditation. Things like the 5 senses or thoughts are all transitory things to notice.
Detailed explanation - concentration vs insite
Both are useful but to actively lower your entropy I would recommend trying vipassana and see what happens. It has worked well for me.
good luck
~D


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:34 pm 
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No type of meditation will lower your entropy. It may have all kinds of benefits from NPMR access to lower blood pressure - but it will not lower your entropy. I will re-post something Ted posted recently that is applicable.

"...it requires multiple incarnations to lower entropy at the being level. If it takes many incarnations, then what results you get in any incarnation one will be relatively subtle and too small to observe here from PMR. I have stated this before and it never seems to sink in. At this rate, you simply cannot observe your or another's entropy level. We simply do not have access to the information. Nor can you observe the small incremental changes at our being level. Just cannot be done. Too fine and subtle differences to be observed moment to moment. Inescapable with what Tom has clearly stated regarding multiple lifetimes being required. What you can see is the relatively rapid 'catching up' to achievements from past lifetimes when you have suffered the typical ill results of home life and education here in PMR. There is always some bad results to straighten out once you become adult and start to break out of control by social forces inherent to PMR. But that only gets you, relatively rapidly, to where you came in before the distortions of growing from infancy to adulthood here in PMR set in.

We can do a better job of 'steering' and noting how we are doing by observing our interactions with others and noting the feedback. If you get a lot of "I can't believe that you did (or said) that", then you could be doing better. You must of course consider the source and make sure that it just isn't an effort to control you. With this approach, you are dealing with real and observable things that are not so subtle that you miss them. You are also dealing with and observing the core reason for our being here participating in PMR. It is the intensity of the interaction here that produces the change and entropy lowering at the being level. While we can't observe at the being level, this we very much can observe."

http://www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7999&p=71025#p71025


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:15 pm 
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Sainbury wrote:

dreamwalker wrote:
Ted Vollers wrote:
...it requires multiple incarnations to lower entropy at the being level. ...what results you get in any incarnation one will be relatively subtle and too small to observe here from PMR.

I agree that for the majority of the people this is the case...are there exceptions? The small percentage that somehow do something that does increase the entropy lowering quickly and noticably? I would like to think so. Discussing the things that people have done that effected this is the direction would like to take this.

Ted Vollers wrote:
What you can see is the relatively rapid 'catching up' to achievements from past lifetimes...

What a demotivater. Everything that I do or will do can be attributed to catching up until I slow down. I don't know if I can totally buy into this. Again this must be true for the majority of the people but what about those who are actively participating in entropy reduction? What can people do to increase the catching up even if this is all they are doing?
Thanks Ted,
I appreciate the feedback.
~D

This was my response to that post. I bolded the points I would like to make. I did not want to hijack that thread and therefore started a new one to explore this idea.
Most people do not want to effect their entropy actively...I would like to discuss the very very rare individual that does. If we adhere to the belief that there is little we can do - not only is the conversation ended but it is unfair to include the small percentage that are willing to work skillfully and diligently toward that purpose.
How many people percentage wise in Buddhism even believe or try to get the first stage of enlightenment? Very very few. How many get to the forth level? Even less. I wish to talk about the very small fraction of a percentage who somehow are not limited by their own belief systems that with years of effort are able to dramatically modify themselves in dramatic ways. If you attribute this all to merely "catching up" from past incarnation so be it. Conversation over, belief sustained....nothing to see here.

Is lowering entropy the same thing as enlightenment?
Sainbury wrote:
Perhaps a few things from Tom will help.

According to the way I define my words, patience, humility, compassion, caring, etc. are all expressions of love. We be those things, as is appropriate, when we be love. Love is the natural state of being of a very low entropy consciousness. The greater our growth, the higher our quality, the more evolved our consciousness, the more spiritual we are, the lower our entropy, the more our intent is rooted in love; the more our existence becomes an expression of love; The closer we are to outgrowing the constraints that define our individuation and create our separateness. When we grow enough to merge with AUM, we do not lose our memory or our history. We are still the uniquely evolved result of that unique entity experiencing a unique growth path -- what we lose is our ego and our separateness -- we become love, one with all that is, fully aware of our connectedness to everything. A clear goal--
http://www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2587&p=3092&hilit=+low+entropy#p3092

When we're "being" everything we do is a direct straightforward reflection of the quality of our consciousness - Our inner core expresses itself without the machinations of the ego and its fear overlaying its commentary, belief based manipulations, justifications and limitations. In that state we learn very quickly because we are entirely open and everything is so straightforward, real, and obvious. However it is a chicken and egg sort of thing. It is very hard to be in "being" mode with a chattering ego at the wheel.Thus, those who can live in the present interacting without expectation or judging tend to be very low entropy beings.
http://www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2850&p=5168&hilit=+low+entropy#p5168

dreamwalker wrote:
Thanks Sainbury,
These quotes get to the core of the thread topic 'What does it feel like to be 'low entropy'?'-
...what we lose is our ego and our separateness -- we become love, one with all that is, fully aware of our connectedness to everything.
We get rid of this - ...the machinations of the ego and its fear overlaying its commentary, belief based manipulations, justifications and limitations

So far I would say that lowering entropy and "enlightenment" are pretty close if not the same thing. We would have to explore these notions a bit closer to see if they describe the exact same thing, but since it is very hard to get agreement on what enlightenment is especially from those who have not tasted the pudding so to speak and are working off conjecture. It gets even more complicated as there are different axis of development that can color the end result and therefore make different "styles" of enlightened people.
Is this worth discussing? Anyone interested in the fringe?
Thanks,
~D


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:38 pm 
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One way the metaphors would fit would be to think of Enlightenment as relating to establishing a very clear signal to noise ratio with your IOUC and the greater reality, but that FWUAian PMR interaction is where wholeistic Quality of Consciousness action happens.

Tom has described the meditating monk in the cave as having the potential for imbalanced development, at best.

So, in this way, meditation and enlightenment, is the best possible preparation for developing quality of consciousness through interaction.

One of the problems I have with Buddhism and my time on the cushion, is its philosophical passivity. Judeo-Christians are very quick to throw off tyrants, and Buddhists are too detached to care about PMR challenges. MBTOE seems to weave these two methods together into MEDITATE AND INTER-ACT.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:30 pm 
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kroeran wrote:
One way the metaphors would fit would be to think of Enlightenment as relating to establishing a very clear signal to noise ratio with your IOUC and the greater reality, but that FWUAian PMR interaction is where wholeistic Quality of Consciousness action happens.

Tom has described the meditating monk in the cave as having the potential for imbalanced development, at best.

So, in this way, meditation and enlightenment, is the best possible preparation for developing quality of consciousness through interaction.

One of the problems I have with Buddhism and my time on the cushion, is its philosophical passivity. Judeo-Christians are very quick to throw off tyrants, and Buddhists are too detached to care about PMR challenges. MBTOE seems to weave these two methods together into MEDITATE AND INTER-ACT.

Link - MCTB Morality, The First and Last Training
Daniel Ingram wrote:
From my point of view, training in morality has as its domain all of the ordinary ways that we live in the world. When we are trying to live the good life in a conventional sense, we are working on training in morality. When we are trying to work on our emotional, psychological and physical health, we are working at the level of training in morality. When we philosophize, we are working on training in morality. When we exercise, we are working on training in morality. When we try to take care of ourselves or others, we are working on training in morality. When we try to defend the environment, reform the government, or make this world a better place, we are working on training in morality. When we try to find a good and helpful job, try to build a healthy marriage or raise healthy children, or shave our heads and move to a remote desert, we are working on training in morality. Whatever we do in the ordinary world that we think will be of some benefit to others or ourselves is an aspect of working on this first training.

The second two trainings, those having to do with attaining unusual states of mind and those having to do with ultimate realizations, have limits, in that we can master them absolutely. However, this cannot be said of the first training. There is no limit to the degree of skill that can be brought to how we live in the world. Thus, morality is also the last training, the training that we will have to work on for all of our life. We may be able to attain to astounding states of consciousness and understand the true nature of reality, but what people see and what is causal are the ways that these abilities and understandings translate into how we live in the world.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:20 am 
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dreamwalker wrote:
Thanks Sainbury,
These quotes get to the core of the thread topic 'What does it feel like to be 'low entropy'?'-
...what we lose is our ego and our separateness -- we become love, one with all that is, fully aware of our connectedness to everything.
We get rid of this - ...the machinations of the ego and its fear overlaying its commentary, belief based manipulations, justifications and limitations

kroeran wrote:
One way the metaphors would fit would be to think of Enlightenment as relating to establishing a very clear signal to noise ratio with your IOUC and the greater reality, but that FWUAian PMR interaction is where wholeistic Quality of Consciousness action happens.
I agree with the metaphor. I too think that it does reduce noise.
(using some of Tom's wordings) -
I look to meditation and enlightenment to change the machinations of the ego and its fear overlaying its commentary, belief based manipulations, justifications and limitations, to change our illusion of separateness, become one with all that is, become fully aware of our connectedness to everything, to become love. Then we take these changes out to the world and interact showing our understanding and ability to incorporate these changes to everyday life. Then we go back to the cushion and do more meditation. This is the intent I try to put forth for meditation/enlightenment. Do I succeed completely? Not by a long shot. I have a long ways to go but notice changes...the amount of stress that has gone away around defending my ego crap has been liberating. Sense of self reduced, non-dual perspective intermittent. I am adding more loving kindness to my meditation practice as I think I could do better on that axis of development.
Thanks for the feedback kroeran
~D


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:58 am 
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Nobody can tell how many lifes one has in one's past, as well it is not known to us how advanced we are, what is our entropy and QoC level. This is our ego's curiosity, since it can make us feel better about ourselves, or even superior to others.

Changing entropy, QoC is a very tedious and slow process. It is better do not be concern with it at all. Just do your best at each given moment an learn to think about others first, be compatoined.

Enlightmet is not a goal of PMR life. A process of living and interaction with others is our learning tool. Solving everyday problems and seeing yourself as you are much more valuable, than a solitary enlightmernt.

Meditation, mantras, burning candles as any other rituals are tools only. They will not take you anywhere, but can help you, if you are not attached to them. Meditation can be done while you take a walk in a park, along the ocean, or when you cook your dinner. It is not what and how you do things counts. It is only your intent behind anything and everything you do, think or feel.

Lena

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:57 am 
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If the metaphors and practises of a legacy consciousness mapping system are working for you, and actual meditation and lucid interaction is what is happening, this is likely to be very profitable. My own experience was with Trungpa's Shambhala, who I recently reconnected with, and I really like the direction they are going in.

Tom is not trying to create a closed loop business model, but is rather pointing at reality from a level of 10000 feet. The Buddhists have been studying and practising meditation for thousands of years. Interacting with the various para-ethnic Western Buddhist schools can be a very powerful tool, especially if you are approaching it from the MBTOE lens of open skepticism.

The way this sort of thing naturally evolves, at some point someone is going to feel an impulse to translate the advanced Buddhist metaphors into MBTOE language, and establish a purely MBTOE institution for teaching advanced meditation.

We are a long way from that, and may never get there, given the institutional fear of becoming a religion, or the dismissive belief that Buddhism is a belief factory, and not a meditation and philosophy factory. There appears to be a lack of appreciation for great difference between American Southern Fundamentalism and Tibetan Tantra or Zen, yet both qualify as "religions".

Nevertheless, those who know different, must appreciate the importance of this new project of rebuilding everything up with a clean slate, and respect the ruleset and migrate to Tom's metaphors and language.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:26 am 
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I wouldn't get too caught up with the word "enlightenment".

I've started reading MCTB and like it so far. I think it integrates well with MBT. MBT is mostly about the "First and Last Practice" in MCTB terms, whereas MCTB focuses on meditation.

Mike

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:42 pm 
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Lena wrote:
Nobody can tell how many lifes one has in one's past, as well it is not known to us how advanced we are, what is our entropy and QoC level.
Well Tom speaks of accessing the database. Might this information be stored there? Didn't Tom overlay headdresses on people with feathers of different sizes to signify thier attributes such as advancement and QoC information from the database?
Lena wrote:
This is our ego's curiosity, since it can make us feel better about ourselves, or even superior to others.
This is absolutely a danger, but as I pointed out doesn't this also silence us to possibilities that could occur with radical honesty and open enlightenment?
Lena wrote:
Changing entropy, QoC is a very tedious and slow process. It is better do not be concern with it at all. Just do your best at each given moment an learn to think about others first, be compatoined.
That is definitely one approach. One that the vast majority are currently doing.
Lena wrote:
Enlightmet is not a goal of PMR life. A process of living and interaction with others is our learning tool. Solving everyday problems and seeing yourself as you are much more valuable, than a solitary enlightmernt.
It seems like you have beliefs limiting enlightenment. I will disagree with you here; but hear your constraint on the word "solitary".
Lena wrote:
Meditation, mantras, burning candles as any other rituals are tools only. They will not take you anywhere, but can help you, if you are not attached to them. Meditation can be done while you take a walk in a park, along the ocean, or when you cook your dinner. It is not what and how you do things counts. It is only your intent behind anything and everything you do, think or feel.
Tools are tools yes, but the proper choice of tool for the job, the effective use of such a tool, can make a vast difference. A rock will work to pound a nail but a hammer works better and a nail gun even faster. You can be mindful during any activity as you pointed out but there are many more practices that you can use when appropriate that may work more specifically on what your intent is.
Thanks for the feedback Lena,
~D


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:04 pm 
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kroeran wrote:
If the metaphors and practises of a legacy consciousness mapping system are working for you, and actual meditation and lucid interaction is what is happening, this is likely to be very profitable.
In spite of the vast majority of the "Buddhist" dogma and doctrine I found a system that did indeed work for me and many others. I have found it profitable so far from direct experience. I have little interest in the religiousness or rituals of any system; I look for what actually works.(caveat - for me)
kroeran wrote:
The way this sort of thing naturally evolves, at some point someone is going to feel an impulse to translate the advanced Buddhist metaphors into MBTOE language, and establish a purely MBTOE institution for teaching advanced meditation. We are a long way from that, and may never get there, given the institutional fear of becoming a religion, or the dismissive belief that Buddhism is a belief factory, and not a meditation and philosophy factory. There appears to be a lack of appreciation for great difference between American Southern Fundamentalism and Tibetan Tantra or Zen, yet both qualify as "religions".
Nevertheless, those who know different, must appreciate the importance of this new project of rebuilding everything up with a clean slate, and respect the ruleset and migrate to Tom's metaphors and language.

This seems to be a worthy goal. Any ideas on how this could be done? Could there be a model already built that might be borrowed and relabeled? (hint hint -try MCTB. (Don't worry I'm pimping out MBT over on the other forum.))
Thanks kroeran
~D


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:16 pm 
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dreamwalker wrote:
Lena wrote:
Nobody can tell how many lifes one has in one's past, as well it is not known to us how advanced we are, what is our entropy and QoC level.
Well Tom speaks of accessing the database. Might this information be stored there? Didn't Tom overlay headdresses on people with feathers of different sizes to signify thier attributes such as advancement and QoC information from the database?
Lena wrote:
This is our ego's curiosity, since it can make us feel better about ourselves, or even superior to others.
This is absolutely a danger, but as I pointed out doesn't this also silence us to possibilities that could occur with radical honesty and open enlightenment?
Lena wrote:
Changing entropy, QoC is a very tedious and slow process. It is better do not be concern with it at all. Just do your best at each given moment an learn to think about others first, be compatoined.
That is definitely one approach. One that the vast majority are currently doing.
Lena wrote:
Enlightmet is not a goal of PMR life. A process of living and interaction with others is our learning tool. Solving everyday problems and seeing yourself as you are much more valuable, than a solitary enlightmernt.
It seems like you have beliefs limiting enlightenment. I will disagree with you here; but hear your constraint on the word "solitary".
Lena wrote:
Meditation, mantras, burning candles as any other rituals are tools only. They will not take you anywhere, but can help you, if you are not attached to them. Meditation can be done while you take a walk in a park, along the ocean, or when you cook your dinner. It is not what and how you do things counts. It is only your intent behind anything and everything you do, think or feel.
Tools are tools yes, but the proper choice of tool for the job, the effective use of such a tool, can make a vast difference. A rock will work to pound a nail but a hammer works better and a nail gun even faster. You can be mindful during any activity as you pointed out but there are many more practices that you can use when appropriate that may work more specifically on what your intent is.
Thanks for the feedback Lena,
~D



*If you have the ability you can access the Actual Past data base and look at some of your past lives. If there is a purpose that would help you advance you might look at them all. If it is just curiosity then you probably won't be able to. I have accessed quite a few with the help of a regression hypnosis CD.

* I don't know what your definition of enlightenment is but in MBT terms you are never enlightened you just keep lowering your entropy and moving on to another learning experience. What happens after that is really above what we can know. Even the entity known as the "Big Cheese" who is in charge of this part of the LCS still has a job and so is still working on his consciousness.

* Comparing PMR tools for a specific job is not the same thing as PMR tools to access NPMR. To look into the Probable Future Data Base someone may use a crystal ball, tarot cards, hypnosis, meditation, etc. It is not the tool that gives you access and no one tool is better than another. The tool that helps you focus is the one you use and believe in. But that is completely subjective to the individual person.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:16 pm 
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I'd like to talk about the machinations of the ego and its fear overlaying its commentary, belief based manipulations, justifications and limitations.
But first a little bit of understanding of what is going on

Minds grasping nature -> Control everything -> create permanency rules -> build ego out of it = stress

Lets look as some categories of things we can control and make permanency rules about
1)Perceived external reality
2)The 5 senses - sensations
3)Emotions
4)Symbols -(elephant)
5)Thoughts -(clown feeding a red peanut to an elephant in a tutu)
6)Sense of Space - Proprioception - Duality/non-duality
7)Sense of time - Chronoception - past,now,future/Eternal now
8)Personality/Identity
Whew, lots of stuff where things can go wrong...are there any belief based manipulations, justifications and limitations that can happen here? Yep. What to do about it? How to get to the core of these silly rules that confine us? Well... I meditate and try to see reality clearly without the illusionary entangled stuff. What happens when this is done skillfully and with diligence? The control/permanency/ego/self gets modified in a good way...it lessens..and the stress that goes with creating all this stuff lessens. With the deletion of the unneeded subroutine the entire system can then work clearer, quicker, better concentration and with less fear.

Lets get back to
Minds grasping nature -> Control everything -> create permanency rules -> build ego out of it = stress
I just created categories -> created new permanency rules around them -> gives me illusionary control->feeds the minds grasping nature.
The joke is on me....and it's hilarious when I finally got it.
I made new intellectual beliefs, they may reflect what is going on but get me no nearer unless the process is experienced.
I have experienced some of this proposed process but from a higher viewpoint it may all fall apart into something more. It is a snapshot from an amateur who can explain a few things to a beginner but by no means is the view of an expert. Of course sometimes that is useful in itself...experts teach at a different level that might not be as helpful as an oversimplified view...(maybe)
Thanks,
~D


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