Ted, do you think this maxim covers positive moral acts? I use this term in the following sense: we are all morally required to respect the free will of others (do not kill them, do not steal from them, do not lie to them--all negative moral obligations), but there are some actions that are moral but are not required of us (that is, positive moral acts are not obligatory). For instance, we are not morally required to mow our neighbors lawn that needs mowing while we are out mowing our own. We are not morally required to set up a reading program for disadvantaged kids. We are not morally required to pick up hitchhikers. And finally we are not morally required to point out the faults in someone's unhelpful and misguided belief systems. But these are all things that we should do if we are in a position to do so.

When you state it, as you normally do, as "optimize the free will" then that is getting closer to positive moral action. But is that what we are actually doing in the above instances? Perhaps, ultimately, by doing those actions we are ultimately working towards optimization of free will (e.g. the reading program will open new intellectual doors for the kids), but in the process of doing the good deed this maxim is not likely to be a conscious part of our moral calculus. Or at least mine.

I guess I am saying that this maxim is a bit passive, and needs more compulsion, wouldn't you say?

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Everything is simpler than we can imagine, at the same time more complex and intertwined than can be comprehended--Goethe, Maxims & Reflections

Let's examine these suggestions.

Should we mow our neighbor's lawn? If he tends to be lazy, he is responsible. Let your contribution be the comparison to your neatly mowed lawn to encourage his free will to get in gear and mow his own. If your neighbor is elderly or unwell and unable to do it or without adequate income to pay your teenage son to do it for him or her, then it would be a contribution to the general free will situation, which looks at mown lawns as desirable, for you to do it for them as a gift. If your neighbor has been on vacation for a while, out of town, then it might be a nice gesture to do it for him or her as a gift. If you know they paid your teenage son to do it while they were away and he has been slacking, then don't but rather put your foot in his tail to remind him of the obligation and motivate his free will.

Are we morally obligated to create a reading program for disadvantaged kids. That would depend on your situation and knowledge, including a knowledge of need. Are you without enough activities to feel that your life is full? Do you have skill in this area and a talent for teaching? Does your free will urge you to engage in positive action to fill a community need? Are you aware that there is a need for such a program? It could then be your obligation to do this rather than something else for which you are less well suited or with less valuable social utility.

Are you morally obligated to pick up a hitch hiker? Is the weather bad in terms of rain, extreme heat or cold with snow such that there is danger to remaining on the road? Is your car full of kids and family and the person looks questionable? What does your sense of risk assessment say about taking on this particular hitch hiker? You have to make this assessment based upon the full factors in the situation, in my opinion of the free will situation.

I don't seen an obligation or even necessarily a good thing in pointing out belief system limitations. If asked, what do you think, that is a different matter. If it results in harm to others, one might have to. You have to make this assessment based upon the full factors in the situation, in my opinion of the free will situation.

We figure things out the best way that we can, given our own level of development.

Ted

Religious training is child abuse and I will continue in my quest to wake people up. Plus removing Fear of death is also a goal. I can see when it actually creates more Fear when I'm doing the thing I do, and stop all sad and stuff. Thing is whatever information I had spewed before realizing they were too far gone is still there and one day they might get something from it to help themselves out of their limited Fear based Reality. Plus any time I see someone using religion judge other, or try to say those that believe are better I come down hard. It's time to come out from under the myths and stop having them be socially normal.
Love
Bette

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All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

I recommend either Meister Eckhardt (which was already mentioned here) or a current example:

Zen Buddhist Master and (!) Benedictine/Christian Monk Willigis Jaeger.

Show her this website on Contemplation, the Christian way of Meditation (site in English):

http://willigisjaeger-foundation.com/ko ... r-uns.html

"In its radical non-dual form and in line with Christian tradition, Contemplation has been revived and renewed by spiritual leaders including Willigis Jäger, adapting to 21stcentury ways of thinking.
The people upholding the tradition of contemplative prayer are no longer monks and nuns, but everyday people, many of them married, out at work and carrying responsibility. This form of prayer is offered to such people in the form of courses. It is a spiritual path, open to each and every one of us willing to take it. It is all about a deep experience of oneself, transcending rational thought, transcending one’s personality.
Contemplation as lived and taught by Willigis Jägeris the western (Christian) form of expressing that spiritual wisdom known and taught over many thousands of years in different religions. In the ways it is taught and learned, it is related to other major religions, including those of the East. It is centred around experiencing a state of consciousness transcending the ego, which can lead to a timeless and spaceless awareness of nothingness, an awareness of our very origin of life.
In this sense, Contemplation is, along with Zen, a cornerstone of the “West-Östlichen Weisheit”, the foundation founded by Willigis Jäger for the purpose of researching and practicing the spiritual pathways of both Western and Eastern religions."

Practices:
http://willigisjaeger-foundation.com/ko ... ebung.html

on W.J.:
http://willigisjaeger-foundation.com/wi ... raphy.html

There is also an English book I found:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mysticism-Moder ... 636&sr=8-1 (don't ask me why they cannot get the word 'conversations' anywhere right)

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"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."
- Max Planck

I knew there was another one in English. Here we go. It's on Contemplation directly:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Contemplation-W ... pd_sim_b_4

:-)

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"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."
- Max Planck

If she might need something that is inside Christianity, but much more progressive and based on love, she could see the lecture by John Shelby Spong on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZM3FXlLMug
Could be a start if it is better to go in small steps for her.

It was originally linked by LisaFutureTherapist here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5610&p=32306

It is possible that readers may not appreciate the importance of this thread. Because it is my hypothesis that MBTOE will replace Christianity (as well as secular materialism), the dominant religion in the west, figuring out how to interact with Christians effectively is a hugely important.

Christianity is this huge array of variety, from the primitive evangelical protestants on one end, to the Catholic mystics on the other end, with many gradations between. Catholicism is a small jump due to its mystical and experential focus and most of protestantism is a large abyss due to its mental and belief focus.

Religion, like anything, has three elements - primitive, practical and poetic. Much of primitive protestantism is based on R-complex inner reptilian factors that likely have the look and feel of early Christianity. Mediterranean Catholicism had a couple of thousand years head start, and had become out of reach for the newly civilized tribes of Northern Europe, so Protestantism was created to fill this void and need for a more course model...it was a profitable step back.

The key question is not to try to convert people who have profitable inertia vectors over to our mental model, rather, let them be, learn their model and language, and use that as a tool for expressing our other centeredness. The power of our other centeredness will move them forward, if indeed we are the teacher - often it is the other way around, and the person with the more primitive model is the teacher. A dingy well sailed overtakes a schooner badly sailed.

I assert that the gospels contain everything you need to guide someone to their feedback mechanism, if the bible or Jesus is their golden calf of primitive worship. There is a recurring theme of other centeredness, protecting the underdog, wonderful lessons of humility and anti-materialism, and explicit references to NPMR, if it is read with the knowledge of the greater TOEian model.

As far as moving the dissemination of the model forward, I would suggest investing in more fertile ground than our fundamentalist friends and relatives and engaging appropriately and effectively, where people are actually looking for answers.

Upon hearing of my interest in the paranormal, the message came back to me that the fundamentalist wing of my family was concerned, and were "praying for me". When I pondered this, I realised that they did not actually "get" Jesus, and had not correctly read the bible. The fact of the matter is that much of what Jesus talked about is out of reach for many, the love instruction and the mystical elements....so the primitive mind interprets it into something they can deal with, mostly to support ego.

Reminds me of the New Yorker cartoon - Squirrel is talking to author across a desk, says "Loved your novel, makes for excellent nesting material"

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Randy,

You miss Tom's point. Tom does not wish to replace any religion other than the 'religion' of scientists as they believe in the deterministic material world as all that there is. To create a return to the ancient understanding or paradigm that Consciousness is the basis for and underlying everything. Your desire to make a religion out of MBT in any fashion is misguided at best and unhelpful to damaging in reaching Tom's real purpose. Remember his discussion of scientists as the high priests of modern Western society. Once that is achieved, everything else will eventually work out. The concept of replacing Christianity or any other religion is not at all helpful as it creates a disagreement with Christians, and potentially with other religions, that Tom does not want and that would be detrimental to the result that he does want. Do you wish to bring down the wrath of some/any fundamentalist sect of any religion down on Tom's head when there is no need for any such conflict? Please think about this completely and carefully.

Ted

Because it is my hypothesis that MBTOE will replace Christianity (as well as secular materialism), the dominant religion in the west, figuring out how to interact with Christians effectively is a hugely important.


I don't think it will replace Christianity. Islam might. Still more likely would be a brainless consumerism of isolated factoid-particles that, like the particles in a suspension, remain unattached to any larger context which might give them some shape. (Why, yes, like what there is now, only more so and more exclusively so).

At any rate, it seems like the best way in general of dealing with overt christian ideation is to throw 'm a bone: Spinkle'm with holy water, say a little prayer, make a sign-of-the-cross or two, quote some obscure and utterly irrelevant passage from the bible..... and then change the subject. Quick. To something that is practical and more experiential.

As far as I can see.... managing to individually create and sustain, (first one, and then several), belief system(s), is a natural part of the evolutionary path from ape to saint (for lack of better terms). It may not be essential if the establishment of mind (modelling systems) is not included.... but if you are going to learn how to think, it is going to be damned hard to do without modeling systems (thoughts and groups of related thoughts). And it seems almost essential that one 'believes in' the veracity and efficacy of thoughts, however (un)warranted. So, people will have their belief systems as the chick-to-be will have its eggshell and the butterfly its chrysalis....necessary for a time. And there seems to be no getting round the (seeming) fact: I can see plainly that many a boardie here regards MBT with the same attitude and 'psychological position' as the Christian with his gods: regardless of truth, they believe in it, and in this way are in something like the same position as the christian: stuck in a circumscribing beleif system.

That's not the end of the world either, and as beleif systems go, a person could do far worse.

But it would be a real shame (though it has happened a thousand times already, I'd wager) if something like MBTist ideation got swallowed up by beleif-systemish goopish thinking, and got turned into a religion as a result.

Of course, the problem with turning MBT into a religion is that, if the person facilitating that process actually understood MBT, he would, as his first act, be absolutely obliged to hang himself for heresy. Burned at the stake. Boiled in oil. & etc.

JMO
Montana

the source of this disagreement is a misunderstanding of the role of religions, and I will give you that Tom appears to share your misunderstanding in some of his earlier writings.

if you believe all religions, and everything about them is entropy fantasy, then it is understandable that you would want to stay well clear of the religion label

if you rather believe that religion reflects the historical human struggle with the big questions and big science, life beyond physical MR, then you will see that much of religion is actually more accurate than small science, and that MBTOE is more of the former line than the latter.

for the MBTOE student struggling with interacting with religious persons in their life, they have to choose from which perspective to interact - from a position of humility and the common ground of shared inquisitive brotherhood - or from a position of arrogance and thinking of the religious person as the enemy...this is the context of the current discussion.

so we need to move beyond binary thinking regarding the religion monikor

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

kroeran wrote:

the source of this disagreement is a misunderstanding of the role of religions, and I will give you that Tom appears to share your misunderstanding in some of his earlier writings.

if you believe all religions, and everything about them is entropy fantasy, then it is understandable that you would want to stay well clear of the religion label

if you rather believe that religion reflects the historical human struggle with the big questions and big science, life beyond physical MR, then you will see that much of religion is actually more accurate than small science, and that MBTOE is more of the former line than the latter.

for the MBTOE student struggling with interacting with religious persons in their life, they have to choose from which perspective to interact - from a position of humility and the common ground of shared inquisitive brotherhood - or from a position of arrogance and thinking of the religious person as the enemy...this is the context of the current discussion.

so we need to move beyond binary thinking regarding the religion monikor

the source of this disagreement is a misunderstanding of the role of economists and establishmentarians,

if you believe that the ideation of all economists and establishmentarians is narrow-minded malarcky, and everything about them is entropic fantasy, then it is understandable that you would want to stay well clear of the economists and establishmentarians label

if you rather believe that the ideation of economists and establishmentarians reflect the historical human struggle with the big questions and big science, life beyond physical MR, then you will see that much of the ideation of economists and establishmentarians is actually more accurate than small science, and that MBTOE is more of the former line than the latter.

for the MBTOE student struggling with interacting with economists and establishmentarians persons in their life, they have to choose from which perspective to interact - from a position of humility and the common ground of shared inquisitive brotherhood - or from a position of arrogance and thinking of the economists and establishmentarians person as the enemy...this is the context of the current discussion.

so we need to move beyond binary thinking regarding the economists and establishmentarians monikor


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hmm...perhaps. Or not.

Hell, I can sink to the occasion and don some arrogance if it is necessary.

Randy, it may be that you feel that you need to sort of integrate your religion with MBTist thinking. But don't insist that everyone else integrate your religion, or anything even remotely like it, into their world views. Especially with catholicism and christianity, you are in danger of getting them radically deconstructed here. Just because those two world views get defended, at times, even by me, here, does not mean that it is permissible to attempt to force feed the stuff to others.

MBT is not a religion.

MBT ain't never gunna BE a religion.

Nor is it ever going to get in bed with one.

Ever.

To the original post: "Emmanuel's Book" by Pat Rodegast is a gentle introduction into the oneness of God; how the ego derives a necessary separation experience, but is built on illusion. The book is even better after reading MBT; stripping away the mystical opaqueness of most spiritual literature/language.


kroeran: How could MBT possibly become a religion, since MBT is about shredding dogmas and shattering mystical natterings. Religions are founded on controlled thought, and hierarchical structures. MBT is about expanding consciousness boundaries, while seeing through the trap of group mentality(belief traps). Not sure how one would corrupt MBT to fulfill the definition of a religion...haha.

MBT is about integrating and converging the primitive para-normal models of NPMR with the primitive 5 sense-limited models of PMR, and it is the first and only Theory of Everything, which is big, and which is Tom's...

A religion is an institutional ruleset where individuals gather around a teacher, a teaching, and a practise, that delves beyond PMR into the bigger questions and beyond the five senses. Otherwise, it is a "society" or club.

Open scepticism itself is a "belief". While a plausible argument can be constructed to assert that MBTOE implies TOEism, this is not your grandmother's religion. It is that narrow slice of some of our grandmother's religions or our parents spiritual beliefs that were actually true and profitable.

Some religions are primally centered, some practically centered, and some mystically centred, aligning with the R-complex, the left hemisphere or the right hemisphere. More modern western mystically centered religions (Quakerism, Unitarianism, Spiritualism, Atlanta North Unity where Tom recently spoke) consider themselves to be "spiritual", rather than "religious", as they have shed some of the more primitive aspects of religion and certainly the strict practical rulesets in favour of self directed love (spiritual off-roading, training wheels off).

Some readers have a deep experience with one of the above categories of religion, and some have a popular cultural cartoonish view with little overlap with what actually goes on in neighbourhood religious/spiritual structures or monestaries.

As far as TOEism, we already have the teacher, a teaching, a practise (meditation, intent, diet), gatherings, with an overall Intent that is beyond PMR concerns, but like certain hot button words...Jesus, God....Religion has a great deal of unprofitable baggage, so the word indeed should be avoided. People should be permitted the belief that this is just another science club if that is what makes them comfortable, and it is just another (big) science club.

The thing is...this arrogant judgemental dismissal of religion and spiritual institutions is the marker of a primitive religion itself, and is a building block of primitive fundamentalist TOEism, which itself may be necessary for a certain category of TOEists who will not be ready to give up the old warrier ways regarding neighbouring philosophical villages.

I think the Atlanta North recording kinda settles this issue once and for all...that we are here picking up a baton in a long rally rather than committing scorched earth on all that came before.

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Well, OK, setting aside, for the moment, the philosophical, moral, logical and aesthetic objections already raised....

There is also the practical aspect: The sector is mature, so the barrier to entry is high. Too, people tend to be more cynical about new religions than they used to. Start-up costs can be enormous, in time, money and resources. It would take a marketing genius, everything else going, to pull it off.

But heck, you are familiar with religion, Randy, and being an economist, presumably familiar with the ins and outs of business.... so: Why don't you put together a business proposal and see where it goes?

Montana

my responses follow # (I keep getting logged out when I try to do a quote response)

==
Well, OK, setting aside, for the moment, the philosophical, moral, logical and aesthetic objections already raised....

There is also the practical aspect: The sector is mature,

#I can see where you are coming from if you look at this from the perspective of the small town fire and brimstone bible thumpers that many are familiar with through their own families or popular culture. With my paternal grandparents being Bretheren, I know how creepy that whole thing feels.

The whole thing looks different if you broaden the perspective and consider it rather as this generic gathering thing humans do around a meme, ruleset, philosophy, with the added ingredient of an NPMR element, which is already taking place under TOEism.

Rather than mature, I see the legacy systems collapsing under accumulated unprofitable belief and new systems fractally emerging in the West in a Darwinian survival of the fittest way, which has been the process all along i.e. Scientology, the more religious yoga clubs, Opus Dei, Christian Evangelical Charismatic Fundamentalism is still going strong, and now we have this Atlanta North thing which is New Age organizing itself into a "spiritual Church apparent non-religion", something new to me.

#so the barrier to entry is high.

all of these legacy systems you are observing started with a guy/gal, then two, then a group and so on. Everything starts small and grows if it is profitable, if there is a void to be filled. The barrier, which is high, has already been breached by Tom forming the intent to do this and doing it. This is a very rare thing, and especially rare when a person of competence tries to do it rather than a sociopathic moron. Many religions begin with the rantings of a sociopathic moron, and then evolve in a profitable direction...so profound is the hunger for such things. Look around you and observe the absurdities that people will tolerate in order to fill their minds with answers. Ask yourself, is there a void that needs filling?


#Too, people tend to be more cynical about new religions than they used to.

Agreed. We should not call it a religion...lets call it "we have the Scientific truth and no-one else does". That's what seems to work. ; - )

The goal here is to construct a non-religion or a para-religion that unifies the mind, the left hemisphere, the frontal cortex, as well as the primal religious juices of the R-complex and the mysticism of the right hemisphere. In this way, it would address the objective of religion but be something fundamentally different or beyond.

For this I guess, we are looking for the low hanging fruit of open sceptics rather than trying to convert committed cynics - feedback will take care of them.

#Start-up costs can be enormous, in time, money and resources.

You already have four active nodes

1) Tom and Pamela's direct efforts
2) MBTEVENTS
3) Ted's Forum
4) Lisa's regional group
5) other efforts I am not aware of

All of these self sustaining not-for-profit things are already taking place. This discussion pertains to Lisa's regional group model, and if it would be profitable to expand it to other cities, and what form and activities are appropriate for such gatherings. These people are doers...so far I and you are just talkers.

#It would take a marketing genius, everything else going, to pull it off.

The process is already unfolding. The question is how or if each one of us will take a seat and start rowing in some way appropriate to our circumstances. I suspect forming and supporting regional groups would be an obvious way individuals could step up and support the meme. Whether or not this is called a religion (which I think it is, but so what) or a cult (which it is not due to its universal message) is a red herring. If there is a void to be filled, small efforts will have large paybacks in terms of propagation of the model.

#But heck, you are familiar with religion, Randy, and being an economist, presumably familiar with the ins and outs of business....

By my observation I think the key is to ensure that no-one be permitted to use the institution as a "profit-centre", in keeping with the example that is already provided by the current team. Take for example the look and feel of TMI, which has the for-profit element of Hemisync (owned by Monroe's heirs), and the cooperative not-for-profit TMI institute, which has paid staff. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that, far from it, but I think with TOEism we are reaching for something different.

I think as soon as you start collecting dues and having paid staff or some form of "priesthood", that is where most of the trouble begins. I would approach this sort of like TOE-Kosher, and look at institutionalizing this not-for-profit aspect that is already there.

Its like when MBTOE events accidentally generated a profit from the NC event - they volunteered to distribute DVDs for free in order to maintain the non-profit element. This principle should be baked in to the cake.

At the moment one permits the creation of an opportunity for someone to pay their rent from TOEism, the trouble begins, and this creates fertile soil and motivation for pushy egos to seek control. There is relentless pressure on institutions to serve themselves, rather than their members or clients.

#so: Why don't you put together a business proposal and see where it goes?

well, this is the core concept - continuing as we have begun, strictly as a non-business, and not giving in, even if it becomes very inconvenient and even if some aspects cannot be pulled together. Again, it is already happening, and the question is if anyone else is ready to get on the train.

The particular aspect I am interested in is this phenomena of regional groups, are they a good thing, what would they do, should energy be invested in them. I do need to walk the talk and try to start one in my area.

whether there is a profitable void here to be filled or not is up to the system, not you or I or even Tom. If there is not a profitable void, no amount of string pushing will accomplish it. If there is a profitable void, no amount of resistance will stop it.

Part of me thinks the era of physically gathering around a teaching is over and it is enough to interact in hyperspace, but it appears that people still have this impulse...maybe it is a generational hangover and will die out.

Speaking of practical aspects, one member here told me she would likely only remarry if it were to another TOE-head...well...how is that going to happen through cyberspace?

==

For myself, the para-religion big-bang of MBTOE began at that moment in NC when we went into group meditation and then as a group did a healing on someone in the room with a serious illness. Its not really possible to put into words...one of those you had to be there moments. Tom pacing at the back like a Zen master.

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?