I had posted somewhere (don't see the threads at the moment) on a couple of occasions that I perceived that there is consciousness out there that appears to have no agency, no free-will, that it just seems to witness and react without any volition of its own. And I believe I suggested that most of the consciousness out there is of this kind.

I now perceive that that was short-sighted, literally.

Those kinds of consciousness have, apparently, the whole range of development, from very simple to well beyond human-grade....and their free-will and volition has the same relative level of sophistication. What threw me was that they always align that free will with, for lack of a better term, 'the will of God' , or 'the will of All That Is' , if you like, or 'the will The Larger Consciousness System'. So it looks like they are without choice .... but actually their choice is to 'do whatever dad wants'. They are as like dedicated soldiers who would never even think (or be inclined in any way) of deviating from orders issued. And as they manifest their doings, they leave behind an ephemeral contrail of, depending on their level of evolution, anything from a contentment, to happiness, to joy, to a blazing, even searing, joy.

At first glance it looks like they have no free-will, but it turns out that they are more like ideal model citizens... not even a "J-walker" among them. To even suggest that it is possible to think of doing something differently than indicated would be regarded by them as horrific sacrilege.

-just my current understanding

Montana

It sounds like brain washing to me. "WHY" would they think to say no to the authority figure, I will not do that, would be a "horrific sacrilege" if they hadn't been taught that to have free will was wrong? Coming in to play the victim, no. Now IF what they are being told to do is good for them as far as quality of life, and not ONLY good for someone else that is different. Such a Reality that what you put forth brings to mind, Montana, feels stunted, and unnatural, to me. Not much good for Evolution I'd say, as compared to a Reality with more freedom.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Bette,

I think that you are misunderstanding Montana. It is not a matter of giving up free will but of knowing that your free will is aligned with the purposes of the LCS/AUM/The One Consciousness. Those at the core of making our Reality work. Those with their hands on the wheel. Those with their shoulders to the wheel. {Careful, different metaphors.} Those who know that they are neither masters nor servants but part of the All That Is and doing their part of their own free will and thus giving expression to the free will of the LCS. Those who understand: Thou art That.

Ted

The purpose of AUM/LCS is to Evolve towards Love. No one "knows", really, what actions promote that in the long run. Just like not all manipulation is bad. I also like to just throw in another way of looking at things too, to deepen things up.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

This is why I love CWG so much. This is Neale Donald Walsch in his book Friendship with God having a conversation with himself about what he was taught to believe as a Catholic and what he had come to find out for himself, and all his realizations about how the two diverged.

Here is a snip:

"Whose “will” is it, then?

I tell you that it is Divine Will. Remember this, always:

Your Will and Mine is that will which is Divine.

Oh, man, that’s wonderful. Wow. That says it, doesn’t it? That puts it all together. You have a way of doing that. You have a way of putting it all in ten words or less. That’s another way of saying something You said in Conversations with God: “Your will for you is My will for you.”

Yes.

But you said something back there that struck me. You said that I have simply been “using God” to make my life happen. Somehow, that doesn’t seem right. I mean, it doesn’t feel as though that’s the kind of relationship I’m supposed to have with You.

Why not?

I don’t know, exactly. But somewhere mixed in there are some things I’ve been taught about being here to serve God. When I was at St. Lawrence Elementary School in Milwaukee and I was really thinking that I was going into the seminary, I remember the nuns talking about God using me to serve God’s purpose. There was never any talk about my using God to serve my purpose...."

I consider them sleepwalkers, because zombies is not a nice word. They will wake up eventually on their own, but I don't see the point in shaking them.

Lynda,

I will repeat to you what I said to Bette above:
I think that you are misunderstanding Montana. It is not a matter of giving up free will but of knowing that your free will is aligned with the purposes of the LCS/AUM/The One Consciousness. Those at the core of making our Reality work. Those with their hands on the wheel. Those with their shoulders to the wheel. {Careful, different metaphors.} Those who know that they are neither masters nor servants but part of the All That Is and doing their part of their own free will and thus giving expression to the free will of the LCS. Those who understand: Thou art That.

Ted

Thanks Ted,

I don't mind the misunderstanding; the topic is pretty far-out from a mainstream human standpoint.

I see this forum as a place where folks can share impressions and models, take what they can use at the moment and leave the rest, perhaps for another time if at all... and leave feedback from their points of view.

If everyone agreed, thought the same, perceived the same,or received everything with open arms, I expect I would feel pretty uncomfortable!

I probably would have left the above post unsaid except that I had previously said otherwise and wanted to correct or update my notions.

Thanks again,

Montana

Montana was it this one? viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5095&p=23565 or maybe here viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4898?

I'm not particularly concerned with my free will lining up with AUM's or God's or the LCS's or anyone.

It's MY free will! Who gives a rat's ass what it does or doesn't line up with? It has been given to me to exercise for good or bad, for right or wrong.

My problem with the zombies is their apparent self-righteous indignation. Their belief that "God" is on their side makes them perform all kinds of despicable acts in the mistaken belief that "God told them to" or they believe they will be "rewarded in Heaven".

Sort of like the 72 virgins the 9/11 terrorists were promised in heaven.

People who live "by the Book" have a special place on my list. Talk about taking things literally! They think the "bible" is the "Word of God" and the "gospel" and that gives them the right to molest and rape, pillage, murder and steal and it's all justified in their minds by their belief system.

Lynda,

To paraphrase a now old song, people "sleep...in a deep, deep sleep", see through a glass darkly, etc etc.

That's the bid drawback with belief systems during the evolutionary period between when they are still new and shiny and in the consciousness get mistaken for, and replace the territory, and that stage where they are transcended and understood to be tools and models.

Never let anyone tell you what to think or believe!
(Sigh~ It's annoying when a serious statement conflicts with itself like that!~)

<{;-D

Montana

Montana,

From what you wrote, I interpreted it to mean you were encountering these beings in NPMR. Is that correct?

Ramon

Ramon,
Both really.... I consider PMR as a subset of NPMR, a particular condensation.



Lynda: I wasn't suggesting that anyone should abandoned their free-will. It's a whole separate thing I am trying to explain.

Here... have you ever been so profoundly in love with someone that you would do just anything for him or her? And what joy you felt when they allowed you to do something for them? It's kind of like that, but with even less noise or distortion in the process.

Again I wouldn't've brought it up at all, but Tom had said repeatedly that there is no consciousness without free-will, and I, in what have seemed like an act of open heresy, said else-wise. I felt it was the right thing to say directly that my perception was in error, that it was short-sighted, and why I perceive that that is so.

Separately, sorry (or should I be?) to hear of the lay-off... it's trite to say, but where one door closes another opens, especially if you are open to it. At any rate, May is a wonderful time to be gainfully unemployed!

-MOntana

I think its called unconditional love. and it works both ways.
Imagine for a moment that you were a creator, or even a co-creator of this PMR. Imagine that you were able to look down from a place where everything and everyone was visible. How would you feel about all the clueless little FWAUs running around thinking that they are all the center of the universe? So arrogant, so ignorant. You wouldnt be able to tell them the truth. You could only drop subtle little hints that wouldnt violate the rule set, and hope they pay attention. Even when they were behaving in such a way that pain would be the inevitable result, You still love them so much that you let them choose for themselves, and make their own mistakes. You hope they realize the truth soon, before they kill themselves. Untill they discover the truth you just love them, support them, and wish them well.

I imagine that I would look at them with love. They were, after all, a part of me. I imagine that I would be rooting for them to all pull together and succeed. They obviously are unaware that they "...will either all live together as brothers, or perish together as fools" ~Martin Luther King JR~

_________________
LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

Unconditional love says: I love you no matter what you do.
Even if you dont do what I want. Even if you dont love me back.

On some level that might resemble an uninvolved, impartial, unemotional observer.

_________________
LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

Montana,

I think, that you have a great privilege to meet such advanced beings. Even more, you are able to see who they are, and it says a lot about you and your development.

Lena

_________________
'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.

Yes to the first part. Not only love, but Forgive. God forgives you, and so do I. Even if you hurt me. Even if you kill me. Even if you are the next Hitler. Unconditional love and forgiveness say, you be you, and I will be me, and God will love us both, whether you know it or not.

I'm not sure on what level that resembles an uninvolved, impartial, unemotional observer. I feel my feelings and I express my emotions. I don't go around saying to people "I love you unconditionally" or "I forgive you unconditionally" because I don't think they would understand. I do however say "I love you" and "I forgive you". The unconditionality I suppose is understood.

Patrick, thank you for coming to this board and making me feel less alone here amongst my dearest friends and strongest, most loving support network. We all have our viewpoints and the things we had learned before coming here, and are still learning now that we're here, and these make us see through our filters - though our eyes, hearts, souls, minds, ears, etc. I sense a like-minded individual in you, a kindred spirit if you will, and I am glad I am not the only one who understands and tries to express unconditional love and forgiveness, no matter how I am treated by anyone.

Love,
Lynda