There is something about pmr bodies acting as a container of consciousness that I still don´t get.

There was a recent question in Toms latest Hawai workshop where a guy asked:
-When did the ego come into the picture. Tom replied that at some point humans at some point in the early days become consciouss enough that they were worth inhabiting by consciousness (and along came the ego)

This would suggest that there were and perhaps still is today emty containers walking around that are not inhabited by consciosness,
if it can, how?, if not, why not?

If I query the historical database I can interact with a person there and it would behave as though its a real person although its just a collection of data without free will.
Can´t the same be true for the "real" pmr world or does every single entity have to be inhabited?

So what I´m wondering if consciousness always does have to go with a pmr body.

/Karl

you are not your body containing consciousness, your are consciousness. try see it the other way around.

i think ego acctually helps us do things in society, its just that most people dont control there ego, there ego controls them.


try to ask yourself when did your ego rise?



i dont really understand that last part!

My question wasn´t about the ego, but if emty containers can walk around and interact with us without being inhabited by consciousness.

If I use a multiplayer game like world of worldcraft for example:

The various mobs (computer characters) is characters we can interact with but they are just data and programming code designed to interact with the players in certain way.
Of course when we play a game we see who is a computer character and who is a real player.
Computer character = no free will
online player = free will

In the same way I can access the historical database and intact with a person there, but the person is not real, it´s just a computer character if you will without any free will.

Hope this clarifies my question :)

/Karl

You mean like zombie's? Like interacting with a historical database version of someone that DOES NOT HAVE free will, because they are "just data" in a historical thread?
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

yeah, exactly that´s what I mean :)

I guess nowadays in this pmr most expressions of life contains a consciousness, but when a life form is in a between state in development perhaps it does not have developed enough to be
worth inhabited my consciosness. When the free will steps in so does the conscioness, that´s what free will means in this matter, right?

/Karl

Great question.

This part of the Q and A confused me a bit as well. My understanding of MBT was that even a clam had some decision space and was therefor conscious to some degree. The Q and A answer seems to imply that this might not always be the case.

Keeping with the idea that our experience is based on the subjective interpretation of data, it would seem very plausible that there could be "people" (or what we experience as people) within PMR that are not actually conscious beings. In the same way that characters within a dream may or may not be conscious beings. The data may originate from consciousness, but it seems possible that some "bodies" or "people" are present as a result of data interpretation and not necessarily because they are a chunk of consciousness experiencing data. Wow, that was a mouthful.

Is short, it seems that the concepts withing MBT (as I currently understand them) would allow for this to be a possibility.

_________________
-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"

Karl and Justin,

While what you speculate about is possible, it would serve no value for the purposes for which the PMR VR exists. Unless a very short term 'deus ex machina' is required, why make up just an appearance. I believe that the CS tries to avoid this type of emergency fix it.

Ted

I love it when that happens, thank you. :)

All that is stuck (perhaps...) in my mind in this is that Free Will, what Ted calls Absolute Free Will, is the opposite of mutually exclusive as related to Consciousness.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Ted - But in that case what did Tom mean when he said: "Suddently they may have become aware to the point that they were worth inhabited by consciousness"
He said it end the end of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=posFQwbhwJ4&NR=1

That statement confuses me...

Challe77,

Was Tom perhaps referring to a time when in the prehistoric past they became worth attaching to and experiencing by a IUOC while previously they had not been of such value? I think that we would really have to ask Tom what he was specifically referring to.

Ted

Yes, I were like you not sure of that statement.

Clarifying it would be most helpful.

It's a bit tricky question:

In the dream reality, no consciousness has to be connected to the perceived beings, those are often called dream characters. Though some of these apparent dream characters does once in a while act out of free-will, as they are real beings with consciousness, it might be hard to distinguish between these two categories for most people.

Here's the tricky part, the dream reality is mostly only internally created, while PMR is external in the sense of a strict rule-set that is not bended to the will of the dreamer, and other real beings with their own consciousness. PMR is especially created for beings inhabited by free-will beings. It is practically impossible for beings to inhabit PMR without consciosuness, as it would be a waste of virtual bodies and thus growth. In all the cases where a body is materialized (rarely), for some purpose, it is controlled actively by consciousness, and thus have free-will. Therefore I don't see it as practically possible for this situation to occur.

Arthur and I saw the movie Inception today, we should all probably see it.

I believe that Tom was answering a specific question about Julien Jaynes book/concept The Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, which I "happen" to have sitting in front of me.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Ted - yes that´s what I mean, It´s pretty clear by viewing the video. So can you explain it?

Karl,

What Tom was answering was a question about when did the ego arise. His answer was that basically it came with consciousness in the PMR VR under the rule set. This is just the last statement made and it is unconnected to what came before to some extent. On repeated listening and thinking back, Tom has discussed that when the PMR VR was started, it just ran in probability mode for some time until the protohumans and others in general had developed, in probability, to the point where there was enough of interest in the behavioral capabilities of the protohumans to make it worth while to start 'populating' the VR with IUOCs receiving the input data stream defining the action. Until then the VR was unobserved and uncollapsed by conscious observation. Saved on compute time and saved a lot of non verbal rock throwing and grabbing level non communication for the participants until there was high enough level of interaction to make it worthwhile.

Ted

I have suspected this concept of empty containers in my earthbound reality for a long time now.Those probability "models" in the future database seem pretty real to me.It would be nothing for TBC to throw one at me for an educational excercise. Intuitively I think it does happen from time to time.

Vewwy intawesting.