I've partially read through MBT, watched plenty of seminars online of Tom Campbell et al, and have done a lot of open minded thinking myself. I have also browsed hundreds of posts on this message board, read the positive reviews, read the skepticism, and got a general feel for the active members here.

I have seen people talking about Tom and Bob Monroe astral projecting in different rooms and having a supposed conversation. They then come back to the physical reality, and their recorded conversations almost match exactly. If proof like that truly is as easy as just "experiencing it", why are tests not done in controlled environments? If we all have the ability to have an OOBE and travel with one another, have conversations, etc, why is this not scientifically documented? It makes absolutely no sense, as doing this would validate the theory, it would be accepted into science, and discovery/progress in this field would skyrocket (something Tom should want).

That is the difference between the MBT Theory and any theory of modern/quantum physics: we are constantly making progress in validating/optimizing quantum physics, while meditation, alternate realities, OOBE, etc. have been around for thousands of years and yet literally no progress has been made (aside from coming up with different ways to explain it, but never ways to prove it). I'm sorry but that HAS to mean something to you. I think Hemi-Sync is great for disproving MBT, because it proves that these states of mind can be physically triggered and reproduced. The only traveling done is in your mind (something you would agree with), but your mind and conscious are both connected to the physical body and reality you exist in. These are exactly what dreams are.

And before the responses come, I understand the idea of a "psi uncertainty principle". I have even seen Ted post and refer to it as 'the powers that be'. This is where the theory is completely flawed, assumptions are quietly added with concepts like these. If the "powers that be" cannot be fully described and validated, there is no reason to believe that they exist. If they don't exist, they cannot be a valid part of a theory...this completely breaks up MBT theory. Regardless of arguing psi uncertainty...Tom claims to have had conversations with others in alternate realities, and then matched them up in the physical reality. Again, if it were this simple, it would be validated at least ONCE.

As posted by another member on this forum, posts like these are usually responded to in the forms of parables and always with a reference to something in MBT (almost always psi uncertainty). That is not evidence.

I truly am sorry, but all you guys are honestly doing is getting lost in your own extremely vivid dreams, and postulating theories and beliefs from them. This is no different than any religion, you are basically Buddhist extremists. Which I don't think there's anything wrong with that, it's completely harmless to others and generally promotes well being and self-content. It's just not science, and not a part of our physical reality and consciousness.

When push comes to shove, actual proof is what is needed beyond telling someone to go have a lucid dream. You cannot just keep creating logical explanations for any question posed, it is the same thing as answering a question with another question.

One last point on my mind: if it is possible to travel to multiple dimensions and observe and even interact with them, it should be very possible to do the same in our own dimension (with your consciousness, not your physical body). This is in essence, remote viewing. You will argue that psi uncertainty is the reason that you can't accurately predict any future or actually see anything that matches up in physical reality. It's not psi uncertainly, it is random thoughts created by your brain. Again, this is what dreaming is.

I don't mean any offense with this post even though it may seem this way. It's just any argument against MBT is always argued with a concept in MBT. There needs to be something else shown (beyond concepts and ideas) before any of these theories can be accepted.

It is evidence, not proof. Remote viewing is main stream at this point after the US governments part in it opened up, have you missed that? I don't think you are disappointing anyone here, not to worry. Keep reading or not, this has to be something you are willing to experience, or it is not for you. Remote healing is another example of real world affects from nonphysical, but it would take personal experience again to be knowledge rather than belief. You have to have your own experiences, and not be so closed minded with your mind completely made-up before you really even know what many of us here are talking about. Don't disappoint yourself, the only self you need be concerned with appointing or disappointing, right? Welcome.
Love to you and yours,
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

paradigm,

Actually, in a sense, you have this all figured out. You are saying that it is all in our minds. Guess what? That is exactly what we say too. You say that it is just concepts and ideas. Guess what? We say that all that exists are concepts and ideas. You have simply not read enough yet to note the things that coming from the direction of MBT can show versus what QM and science in general cannot show. QM still talks about anomalies. Tom has explained many of those anomalies and in the general sense, all of them. Tom has explained how relativistic physics derives from the concepts of MBT as a necessary result. You have not noticed the links to research in various fields of science that fits right into the 'concepts and ideas' of MBT. Try looking in the third, reference, section at the bottom of the index page and checking out some of those threads. Cutting edge science and mathematics is gradually moving in the direction of the concepts and ideas of MBT.

Ted

paradigm,

You interact with this world through your five senses and then interpret the received information and thus everything is nominally subjective. It will never be possible to effectively comprehend the bigger reality (superset) from inside a smaller reality (subset) using concepts of a smaller reality. It should be possible to experience that bigger reality, but interpretations and descriptions will be limited and will be very individual and may often seem contradictory. That is why any attempts at creating proofs acceptable by masses are doomed. Because of that nothing is really certain and one of the best advices Tom gives is to learn how to live gracefully with uncertainty. MBT is Tom's model of how things work that he created based on his direct experience and shared with us. You will have to have you own direct experiences that will enable you to make your own conclusions that very well may sound different once necessarily expressed using a human language and smaller reality concepts. And only through your own experience you can learn to differentiate between data (information) streams coming in to you from outside and the ones that you create yourself (your imagination).

paradigm states:


I'm probably different than a lot of the people on this forum. I haven't had out of body experiences or lucid dreams. I'm not good at getting into a meditative state. I have, however, had some unusual experiences over the years that I would describe as paranormal. The skeptical "explanations" put forth by the scientific community do not adequately explain my experiences.

I have found that even those who "believe" in the paranormal have no good explanation of why or how paranormal things happen.

MBT, which theorizes that conciousness is "real" and all else is derived from that reality, explains my personal experiences better.

My "argument" for MBT, if you can even call it that, has nothing to do with any concept within MBT. MBT simply explains my personal reality better than conventional science does.

Only if I'm deluded or mistaken or lying, does mainsteam science adequately explain the things I've experienced personally.

Jeanne

Hi Paradigm,

Why form an opinion for or against MBT at this stage of your exploring? MBT is simply a model that we can refer to to help us better understand our own experiences. You could simply integrate components of it into your current truth and then leave those aspects you find unhelpful behind.

The trick is to remain open minded and sceptical. When you find that balance, you can literally cherry pick from each of the frameworks or beliefs you subscribe too - effectively building your own big TOE, which Tom has always advocated each of us do.

Happy travels!

Nick

Hello,
I wanted to jump in here for an admittedly selfish reason-I really enjoy sceptical conversations when they are civil. I won't try to do any convincing;but I just want to point out what I think is some error in the above quote.

About the getting lost in dreams:Even if science has explained everything in the terms of a physical matter universe, this does not invalidate dreaming as a real experience.Dreaming is another 'dimension' of experience.

In material terms you can imagine that the descrete periodic elements of the universe have evolved awarenesness of itself. Us,as the subunits of the universe-proteins,S,Na,Ca,K,etc. are in fact the universe 'dreaming' it's self. The universe dreams in this sense,so therefore dreams are 'real'.

As for the remote viewing part: LOL... A quick 'parable' ,not from some assumed position of authority; but my own experience.When I was a young twenty something I was asleep at my girlfreind's apt. In a dream a phone rang-it was my grandfather in Philly "calling to say goodbye". When I woke there was a knock on the door-I knew that moment what it was about.

At the time it turned out that he was intubated and consciously sedated in an ICU 1,200 miles away. After we got to his bedside to say goodbye he died. None of this follows any scientific protocal; but it was a 'real' event in my consciousness. I had 2 witnesses to the conditions and had not known anything of his illness-it was a sudden, massive heart attack.

If you accept my story then something must be explained.

Paradigm,

If all you're wanting is proof of paranormal, see Dean Radin's book
The Conscious Universe..

There he makes an irrefutable (as far as I know, no one has even quibbled even about little stuff) argument demonstrating that the possibility that results that can be attributed to chance are vanishingly small. Super eeeensy beansie.... something like 1 over 10 to the 20ths something power. Read that, or listen to some of his interviews on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw_O9Qiwqew

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHgjBY5DP7s

The two things that,(or me), single out TC's MBT are 1) Tom says that the whole kaboodle is digitally formatted, along with the implication that information is files-like and or program-like ,and 2) He's done enough traveling to have an informed opinion.

But, as for material and other existence being something more than mechanical clonk-a-day physics, well, it would be easier (for me) to doubt reason itself, or hypothesize some vast conspiracy by hundreds and thousands of psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, nurses, physicists and talk show hosts to try to GET us to believe in mystical hocus-pocus.


Happy Trails!~ It's a fun journey~

-Montana

Again, you can only physically prove that you have the ability to control your consciousness when you're in a dream-state. I can (and plan on) practice meditation and control my mind to the point where I can have an OOBE. But as real as I know it may feel, it is a figment of my imagination that IS a part of my physical reality now. Certainly with all of the thousands of people 'experiencing' these alternate realities that are more complex than ours, one person should be capable of acquiring knowledge that can be applied to our physical universe.

And once again before you counter-argue, you cannot argue with logic within MBT. MBT has zero proof and zero evidence, it is false until proven true. You cannot argue with false facts.



This once again is just the 'experience it' argument. If remote healing were real, why would it not be adopted into modern medicine? Surely the power of healing with the mind would be the optimum way to heal somebody. It would be a closer step toward perfection, toward lower entropy. But that is not the case, because while there is a select group of people that claim to posses the ability to remotely heal, any wide spread or controlled tests must have been negative; or else this would have been a popular way of using medicine years ago.




To say that cutting edge science is moving in the way of MBT is nothing more than wishful thinking. Tom has developed a theory of consciousness that seems to "fit" when looked at from any perspective. This is great and I believe would take positive steps, in the field of philosophy and psychology, not in science/everything. To first release a scientific theory ("breakthrough") that explains everything in a book written for a layman further proves Tom's main motives and target audience. If he actually wanted to change the world and the way we look at science, the first objective would be scientifically proving his theory. If there were even one tested and verifiable study proving MBT, scientists would certainly pick the idea up. It would be studied more, it would be widespread, it would grow, and it would become more profitable (lower entropy). Isn't that the goal?

QM is something we're trying to study physically, that's why it's respected. It's also why it differs from MBT. Tom (and you) would say that MBT can be experienced physically, thought about physically, and even tested physically (Hemi-Sync, remote viewing, traveling together)...why has it not been proven physically? These are the very reasons why MBT has been around for 7 or 8 years and seemingly no progress has been made to prove it.



Again, there is nothing remotely close to proof that a "bigger reality" exists. Furthermore, while I believe it's completely possible that a "bigger reality" exists, MBT is one theoretical way of explaining what it could possibly be like. If MBT is the most factually complete and accurate theory to this, that is proof a larger reality does not exist. Because if you are able to experience both the large and small reality, you should be able to use larger reality techniques and demonstrate them in the smaller reality (ie. remote viewing). But you are not.

Think of Earth as a subset in our universe. Mankind was created and evolved on Earth, all a part of this biological system and subset with it's own unique rules, it's own unique atmosphere, etc. We could see the sky and the stars (the bigger reality), but could not prove them because they were impossibly far away. Humans created theories to describe what is out in that "Big Picture", and over time evolved to the point where we had the power to experience it. Once we experienced it, we proved it, verified it, and expanded the study of it. You can experience MBT and alternate realities, but you can nor prove or verify it, and that is the reason why it's not widely studied.



That is a complete cop-out excuse. Things are quite certain in our physical reality. Uncertainty exists, but it's not strong enough a force to really influence the way we live. If you put 10 people in a giant red room, bring them out, and ask them what color the room was...what would they say? Almost all would say "red". There are no interpretations, there is no other way to see it...it is red. Uncertainty might be that one of the persons is color-blind and therefore sees a different color. But that doesn't change the fact that almost everyone would say they were in a red room. If thousands of people experience these alternate realities, yes you would have some people that interpret it different. But in order for it to be a real system, the majority of people all must confirm and describe the exact same thing. If this were true it would be studied, documented, and proven. But it is not.




You sum it up nicely right there. It's a personal belief and based on experience, not a scientific fact based on research. You use your imagination to create visions in your mind and explore them. What you don't understand is that your consciousness never actually leaves your physical body. Without your physical body, your consciousness does not exist. If it does, there should be a way to prove it.



This again is nothing more than the 'experience' argument, and philosophy. Mainstream science supports the idea that you can consciously control your dreams with your brain. Paranormal activity is small uncertainties in our physical reality that people interpret differently with their minds. Just because you believe something paranormal happened does not mean that something paranormal happened. It means there was an uncertainty, fluctuation, anomaly, etc. in our physical reality...these things are random and that is the explanation. If there was a way to explain them, it would be proven.



You do a perfect job at explaining exactly why this idea of MBT will never, ever be more than a failed theory. You're right, it is just a model that can help you better understand your experiences. Realize that this is nothing more than psychology and philosophy. It is NOT science, and it is NOT something that is a part of reality.

The universe has it's laws that we all have to follow. Tom claims the ability to transcend these laws, but has no way to prove it. Einstein would not be on the path Tom is now when trying to prove UFT/QM/uncertainty. Consciousness is an incredibly interesting field and deserves study, but not to prove a scientific theory of everything. Only for self-improvement and better understanding our physical consciousness/brain.



Dreaming is only possible if you're physically alive. It is another dimension of experience, but not another dimension of reality. When your body ceases to exist, you no longer have the ability to dream.



Coincidence and probability. But because how deeply personal it was to you, psychologically you interpret it as something different, something 'paranormal'. Literally billions of people dream every night, hundreds and hundreds of billions of dreams over years. It's just probability that a percentage of people happen to make a real life connection to their dream. Your connection just happened to be something personally monumental to you. Just as there is probability that a percentage of people experience this coincidence, there is a percentage within that percentage that will experience the coincidence over something major, like a death.

I 100% believe that what you explained happened to you. It was nothing paranormal though, just a very strange coincidence you had...just like thousands of other people. If they were more than just coincidences, they could be verified and proven scientifically.

Hi Paradigm:

MBT, to start with has all the proven truth that applies to a model based on an purely objective physical reality. You think a classic objective physical reality is a better model, just because most people may think so, and you went through your life receiving that information. Same thing happened when they thought the Earth was flat and the center of the universe. MBT not also models our PMR, but also explains all the paranormal. There is tons of data that fits into MBT. It just models realities better than any other model. I think that before saying "zero proof" you do a better research. In this board several people had experiences that proves MBT is true, I had more than I needed. There is more in the internet.

Well, dig it more and try meditation and you can be skeptic and open minded and build your own model with the components and aspects that you choose as better to explain everything.

Happy New Year,

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

And then someone came up with a theory to explain it, it was observed by many scientists, and finally scientifically proven.

Tom came up with MBT, it has been observed by scientists for hundreds of years but generally put aside because of the proven falsities, and it has never been scientifically proven.

This wouldn't be nearly as bad if Tom (and all believers of the religion he has created) didn't admit to being able to physically prove this. To say that you can travel to different realities with a person from here (our physical reality), come back to Earth, and wake up and talk about the experience together, is to say that you can prove the nonphysical with physical evidence. You cannot claim this and then not even come close to physically proving it, not even once, 8 years after the theory was released.

Trying to convince someone to believe in something without evidence (to believe in an idea) is the exact same thing as religion. It cannot be proven, only believed. It is not science; it is psychology, philosophy, and religion.

Look at what you're doing, and what you have been doing for years on this board. You're trying to convince people of your ideas and beliefs based on your own personal experience with it. Your arguing points are only points taken from MBT, and the 'experience it' argument. This is no different than any other devout Jew, Catholic, Muslim, etc. They will give you all the references in the world from their religious text, but have no scientific proof to back them up.

Hi Paradigm:

I am not trying to convince people. I enjoy giving my best and make people think with open minded skepticism.

I don't want to convince you, but let's see if you can agree that the more you know about something the better judgement you can make. Doesn't make sense that you should try to explore alternatives? MBT is an alternative I recommend. Another one is to get into the worlds of NPMR through meditation, dreaming. Once you say "Wow", probably you'll remember me.

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

paradigm,

How do you know that my "red" is not "redder" than yours? It is all subjective and I cannot see the world through your eyes and interpret it the way you do. It seems you are not satisfied with your old system of beliefs and are shopping for a new one. Your criterion for a suitable system would be a believable proof. MBT does not have any proofs. It is not a theorem, it is a model to explain experiences and it can be called just another system of beliefs until you experience what it is describing. Then it becomes your knowledge and it is possible you will describe that knowledge very differently from how Tom described his. I don't think anyone here will be able to serve you a convincing logical argument on a silver platter that will make you believe in MBT. It is not a religion and if you are looking for something you will have to do your own legwork.

Once again you completely ignore the arguing points and continue to tell me to 'experience it'. All I would be experiencing is a deep state of meditation, nothing paranormal or nonphysical.

As I've said, Tom not only makes connections between the physical and nonphysical, but describes that these connections are easy to experience and take part in. If you can experience the nonphysical in the physical world, you must be able to prove it, or else it does not physically exist. If it is so easy to travel consciously with other physical beings here on Earth, it should not be a difficult thing to prove.

I don't mean to be insulting, but many of the posting members here do sound mentally deranged and delusional. I don't view Tom in this way, because he IS expanding our knowledge of certain things in psychology. The things he talks about aren't crazy/kooky/insane, they are just misguided (they are not about physics and everything, merely psychology and neuroscience). It's the members here that are living proof that brainwashing is possible. He has planted an idea in your head, your mind was vulnerable for whatever reason, and just through deep meditation he has you convinced that you can live in multiple dimensions and realities. Now THAT is crazy!

Just as any religious person experiences God answering their prayers, you see meditation as proof that MBT is true. Ask any devout religious person why they truly believe in their religion, 9 times out of 10 they will relate it to personal experience. Zero proof, only personal experience. If you ask them to explain themselves further, they will just bring up things from their religious texts. You must understand that science will never prove religion, just like science will never prove MBT. MBT is not science, it is a philosophy on our conscious state of being.

Until you can prove that consciousness can be experienced without a physical body, the theory is false. There is no proof of this, you need your physical brain to have a consciousness. You can tell me to 'experience it', but I will still be using my physical brain to experience it.

It is not that hard to understand, your emotions just completely cloud you and you would much rather feel great meditating than accept the truth.

You speak of nothing past imagination and perception. Both of these things cease to exist without your physical brain, body, and consciousness. Prove otherwise.

Also, my red is the same as your red. Your brain might interpret the color differently (ie. color-blindness), but that does not change the chemical composition and reflection of light that gives something it's color. What you're describing is simply a difference in opinion, not physical fact. It is also a physical fact that your mind and consciousness cease to exist without your physical body. Until that is proven wrong I do not understand how you can't accept that it's not true. I can prove that you're simply in a dream-state and that any reality can be created in that state, you cannot prove that you are in more than a dream state.

You simply cannot completely neglect proof, it is what we base everything we know off of. And MBT is completely devoid of proof, there is not even one shred of it. Please enlighten me and share proof, if not I truly don't understand how you can reject these thoughts.