Hi folks,

I have been reading Tom's books, and I have stalled a bit on how reality is rendered for us. It seems to me that if you extrapolate his theory, you can very easily come to the conclusion that dinosaurs did not exist.... that only the fossils are rendered for our reality/discovery?

Your thoughts, please?

Kind regards,

Rich

Hi Rich,
Rowarrrrr! I LOVE dinosaurs, and so does my daughter. Oh, welcome to Tom's MBT discussion group forums. Anyway, dinosaurs, they probably felt that they were real when they were there. For all I know they were just one species in this particular long line of evolutionary attempts at evolving Consciousness here. They are birds now, right?

The question you ask sounds very close to something someone that has a belief that meditation is conversing with the devil said to me, and the was that those bones are put there, um, why was it again. Well the reason was so silly I can't remember the purpose although it seems it was tio induce doubt, but the WHO that is believed to have put them around was god, by this friend.

Welcome again, and you will get a much better answer I'm sure.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Rich,

Your question indicates a substantial misunderstanding. That the fossils of dinosaurs were created only to tell us a past story through fossils implies that you think, or at least are not realizing the implication, that the dinosaurs themselves were not conscious creatures and with some degree of intelligence. MBT is not anthropocentric and does not claim that all this (PMR) is just here as a show for us as the chosen species with the highest intelligence. We are not the only Individuated Units of Consciousness experiencing Earth as a part of PMR. The dinosaurs did not inhabit the earth alone and there were other species including proto mammals sharing the environment and interacting with and experiencing the existence of each other.

All conscious beings represent an IUOC experiencing PMR and for each such being, down to the smallest 'critter', the probability field is collapsed by their conscious observation, rendered for their experience and conveyed to them as data input over the RWW. All such IUOCs receive benefits in terms of improving the Quality of (their) Consciousness and the lowering of their entropy. Even creatures existing on a kill or be killed basis experience some degree of interaction with at least some of their own species involving recognition of their own kind and 'feelings' of some sort for fellow beings of their own kind. Development may be slow and may be limited, but there is some value to each such IUOC and to the Consciousness System as a whole.

Ted

Hi Rich,

There's really little else to add to what Ted says. Our, and other PMRs, are all 'set off' (digital big bang) with a governing rule-set, and left to evolve from then on. The physical form of the PMR, as well as of any 'critters' that evolve within it, are virtual, and exist only as probability data until collapsed by a conscious observation. The complexity, or otherwise, of the sentient critters which arise/evolve within the rule-set, will determine their 'decision-space' and interactivity, and hence their ability to further the evolution of consciousness (the purpose of the PMR). That dinosaurs, and other critters, will leave 'physical' (virtual) remains - such as fossils - is all determined by the probability in accordance with history and the rule-set. The probabilty wave is collapsed into (virtual) actuality by conscious observation, such as when a paleontologist discovers a fossil in a certain place. The dinosaur (or other critter) which became the fossil certainly did exist as a virtual being in the PMR past, thus giving rise to the probability of its remains forming a fossil (again, within the rule-set).

As Ted regularly emphasises, there is nothing "out there", except data, which includes probability functions (data). Even we IUOCs are just data - self-aware, self-modifying data, within Consciousness Space (where "Space" is not the same as PMR Space).

Don't know if this helps you at all!

Arthur

_________________
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."

Thanks for your input folks, I very much believe that dinosaurs did exist, but must argue that in accordance with Tom's theory, they were never rendered for us, so they merely exist as probability waves until they were measured by us. It is our act of measurement that decides whether they exist or not.

Can you see how one part of the principle can be extrapolated and made to build a set of beliefs that do not conform to common sense?

This is like taking the physics measurement problem and assuming that all is not real because the common laws of releativity as we understand them break down at a sub-atomic level - therefore, metaphysics is viable. No it's not. It's merely our consciousness affecting the measure.

:-) Rich

I love a good debate.

It takes Consciousness, any bit of Consciousness, and dinosaurs had that. If a bug requires a forest to be rendered it will, but it will only require the part it can be aware of rendered. Dinosaurs had a lot to be aware of, including each other. You may be a bit human-centric, right? It doesn't take a human, it takes Consciousness.

Me too, the debate thing, are you a good debater? As a matter of fact, well, we'll see where ths goes....:)
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Rich,

You are confusing the issue in a way that it need not be confused. Nothing with which you are not contemporary will ever be rendered for your observation. This says nothing what so ever about its existence and rendering for other conscious entities during the time period when it was extant. That dinosaurs show up only in fossil records now says only that they are extinct and nothing to the effect that they once existed and were fully rendered for observation and interaction with contemporary conscious creatures nor anything what so ever about the description of reality in My Big TOE.

Unless your family is and was very long lived, you were not alive, having not yet been born, during the same period when your great grandfather was alive. Does the fact that he is not rendered for your current observation say anything about his existence during his lifetime? Does the fact that he exists in family photographs and records not adequately document his existence at a previous time? Was he not rendered for observation and interaction by your great grandmother, his own parents and his own children? By analogy, the fact that he cannot and will not be rendered for your observation would by your reasoning say the same thing about the description of reality in MBT which is absolutely nothing. This is an absolutely parallel line of reasoning as far as I can see and it would clearly negate the line of thinking that you are applying.

Ted

Bette: "The question you ask sounds very close to something someone that has a belief that meditation is conversing with the devil said to me, and the was that those bones are put there, um, why was it again. Well the reason was so silly I can't remember the purpose although it seems it was tio induce doubt, but the WHO that is believed to have put them around was god, by this friend."

I have heard that before too. Basically, as I heard it, the point of the fossils, placed there as fossils by God, was a test of faith in the biblical story. As you said, it was to create doubt in the age of the earth being measured in the thousands, rather than millions or billions of years.

My response was that it sounded like rubbish and that if a god were to be so deceitful as to try to deliberatly mislead me with the result that if my faith was found lacking I would then go to Hell and be punished for all eternity based on this trickery, then that was a god I would not be interested in following.

Ramon

Exactly Ramon, spot on.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

How's this? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qmglGWMsdk

Actually SS that's perfect. He's still sooo funny. Now I see something else though I didn't see before, he's a little mean about his depiction of fundamentalists. I guess "it's so funny because it's true" works for this too. It's so mean because it's true, the mind-set part anyway.
Thank you.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Richnwood2000: Can you see how one part of the principle can be extrapolated and made to build a set of beliefs that do not conform to common sense?

Tom: No I cannot -- not without seriously misunderstanding the principles of the larger consciousness system and how and why it generates a virtual reality. Ted and Arthur and Ted again gave very clear explanations. Dinos are in the same category as your great grandmother, Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King and everyone who passed away in the last five minutes. Because you die, doesn't erase the fact of your existence at the time you existed -- dinosaurs included. You Have somehow misunderstand the concept of a virtual reality in such a way as to end up stuck in this bizarre "logical" corner. Instead of extrapolating your error all the way to "dinosaurs not existing", try a smaller step and perhaps someone here can help you spot the problem and get you back to a more productive understanding. Some assumption tied to a cultural belief, I would guess -- it usually is. Good luck getting untangled.

Tom

If every thing is consciousness, then consciousness itself is the substance of every thing.

If dinosaurs existed, then they were "rendered" when they interacted with any thing else.

What is rendered is the experience. What exists is the consciousness. That consciousness includes the Earth, the Sun, the Milky Way, and the dinosaurs. Existence is the conscious being having experience. Ultimately, in any PMR, that experience is the experience of the fundamental particles of consciousness. Combined, they may be either a rock, an ocean, a Human, or a Dinosaur. But at no time is there an experience of a thing unless the thing exists. The rendering of an experience of it is dependent upon it being in the first place, the rendering follows the circumstances of that being and the being of all the other relevant observers.

Any particle will do as an observer, not just a complex being like a human. What can be observed, what can be experienced, is limited to the ability of the observer to observe. In the case of a fundamental particle, that observation is extremely limited, but the rendering of an awareness is still performed, and the experience of the consciousness particle will be.

_________________
Most people are mostly good most of the time. - the Deefburger assumption of marginal probable personal state.

Perhaps the more interesting question would be this: Dinosaurs are believed to have lived on Earth as the dominant species for 135,000,000 years before extinction. Modern humans have only been around for about 50,000 years. That is much less than even 1% of the time that dinosaurs were around. So what purpose did the dinosaurs serve for such a long period of time? Why was there no evidence of any progress made by them? There is no evidence of any kind of a benevolent society; basically they lived like all animals do. Yet humans have this extremely accelerated change in society in just a few thousand years for no apparent reason?

Humans have been around a lot longer than history allows.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.