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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:33 pm 
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This is a Discover online article of an interview with Edelman, a leading mind in consciousness. ;) He couldn't be more wrong as he is talking about being conscious not consciousness, imo. This is state of the art PMR 'scientific' thinking though, yikes! http://discovermagazine.com/2009/feb/16 ... quely-you/
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:13 am 
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And what parts do you think need correcting or improving?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:44 am 
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Why should we fritter away at an answer to this question, when Jane and Seth could say it so much better: (and for the sake of discussion :) )

Quote:
Now, each whole self, or multidimensional personality, has its own purposes, missions, and creative endeavors that are initial and basic parts of itself and that determine those qualities that make it eternally valid and eternally seeking. We are finally free to utilize our energy in those directions. We face many challenges of quite momentous nature, and we realize that our purposes are not only important in themselves, but for the surprising offshoots that develop in our efforts to pursue them. In working for our purposes, we realize we are blazing trails that can also be used by others.

We also suspect - certainly I do - that the purposes themselves will have surprising results, astounding consequences that we have never realized, and that they will merely lead to new avenues. Realizing this helps us keep a sense of humor.

When one has been born and has died many times, expecting extinction with each death, and when this experience is followed by the realization that existence still continues, then a sense of the divine comedy enters in.

We are beginning to learn the creative joy of play. I believe, for example, that all creativity and consciousness is born in the quality of play, as opposed to work, in the quickened intuitional spontaneity that I see as a constant through all my own existences, and in the experience of those I know.


And one more for the road: (Hope you don't mind)

Quote:
When you arrive, or emerge, into physical life, not only is your mind not a blank slate, waiting for the scrolls that experience will write upon it, but you are already equipped with a memory bank far surpassing that of any computer. You face your first day upon the planet with skills and abilities already built in, though they may or may not be used; and they are not merely the result of heredity as you think of it.

You may think of your soul or entity - though only briefly and for the sake of this analogy - as some conscious and living, divinely inspired computer who programs its own existences and lifetimes. But this computer is so highly endowed with creativity that each of the various personalities it programs spring into consciousness and song, and in turn create realities that may have been undreamed of by the computer itself.

Each such personality, however, comes with a built-in idea of the reality in which it will operate, and its mental equipment is highly tailored to meet very specialized environments. It has full freedom, but it must operate within the context of existence to which it has been programmed. Within the personality, however, in the most secret recesses, is the condensed knowledge that resides in the computer as a whole. I must emphasize that I am not saying that the soul or entity is a computer, but only asking you to look at the matter in this light in order to make several points clear.

Each personality has within it the ability not only to gain a new type of existence in the environment - in your case in physical reality - but to add creatively to the very quality of its own consciousness, and in so doing to work its way through the specialized system, breaking the barriers of reality as it knows it.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:56 am 
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ColeRandall,

I think it would have been better if you would have asked why you should "fritter away at an answer". I'm familiar with Seth, with the information you've attempted to relate via someone else's thoughts, and so forth. My question was to Bette, but it can be to you also, and let me re-phrase the question.

Within the context of the article, which is a context within this PMR and the scientific disciplines mentioned therein, what do you see within the article that needs correcting?

Did you fritter away enough time to read the article? The article seemed to be dismissed on the whole, though I could find little within to disagree upon. This is not to say the information is complete, but for the aspects of consciousness it covers, it seems rather on target. They were limiting questions, but it's a magazine article, not a book.

I've read Seth. I can't say that I could agree on everything I read. Some things were easily discernible as Jane's beliefs, as they contradict known facts. I know this because I frittered away my time doing research on some of them before I ever heard of Jane & Seth.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:22 am 
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fritter...I wonder if that's the concept behind Twitter, frittering away one's time. Writing down one's thoughts, or sharing someone else's thoughts by writing them out, it is time consuming. If all my thoughts could be captured, all the ideas I have had, well let's just say I am pretty sure I have invented or otherwise produced a useful idea or two that would change the world and then just as quickly forgot it.

Roland please meet Cole, Cole this is Roland. Roland helps keep me on track and can be real nice. :) Roland, here is your answer. It's just a few paragraphs into the article when consciousness is called a biological system, that to me is physical mind or brain that is conscious sometimes and also not conscious sometimes. Consciousness, as we consider it, is a nonphysical digital information system. Once that discrepancy came into view the rest of the article was skewed for me. This is the premier researcher too. :(
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:27 am 
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Roland wrote:
ColeRandall,

I think it would have been better if you would have asked why you should "fritter away at an answer". I'm familiar with Seth, with the information you've attempted to relate via someone else's thoughts, and so forth. My question was to Bette, but it can be to you also, and let me re-phrase the question.

Within the context of the article, which is a context within this PMR and the scientific disciplines mentioned therein, what do you see within the article that needs correcting?

Did you fritter away enough time to read the article? The article seemed to be dismissed on the whole, though I could find little within to disagree upon. This is not to say the information is complete, but for the aspects of consciousness it covers, it seems rather on target. They were limiting questions, but it's a magazine article, not a book.

I've read Seth. I can't say that I could agree on everything I read. Some things were easily discernible as Jane's beliefs, as they contradict known facts. I know this because I frittered away my time doing research on some of them before I ever heard of Jane & Seth.


Good point. I guess I just like the word fritter. Apparently you do too.

I did read the article. You're right actually- from a PMR standpoint, it's right on.

I was just re-reading some of the Seth stuff today- I felt like posting a little of it on here, as I know Tom has given his own acknowledgment as to the 'general' (albeit not complete..) accuracy of those (The Seth) works, and attested to the validity of Seth 'him'self as an entity independent of Jane's subconscious. I realize that your question wasn't addressed to "me" specifically, but I used "we" as in any (individuated unit of the ONE) consciousness that may wandering around these boards looking for useful data. Sorry


Cole

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:33 am 
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Sorry my asset ;). I always say, "I'm sorry, and I apologize for being that way."
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:48 am 
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bette wrote:
Sorry my asset ;). I always say, "I'm sorry, and I apologize for being that way."
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lol... ;) Indeed.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:11 pm 
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bette wrote:
fritter...I wonder if that's the concept behind Twitter, frittering away one's time. Writing down one's thoughts, or sharing someone else's thoughts by writing them out, it is time consuming. If all my thoughts could be captured, all the ideas I have had, well let's just say I am pretty sure I have invented or otherwise produced a useful idea or two that would change the world and then just as quickly forgot it.

Roland please meet Cole, Cole this is Roland. Roland helps keep me on track and can be real nice. :) Roland, here is your answer. It's just a few paragraphs into the article when consciousness is called a biological system, that to me is physical mind or brain that is conscious sometimes and also not conscious sometimes. Consciousness, as we consider it, is a nonphysical digital information system. Once that discrepancy came into view the rest of the article was skewed for me. This is the premier researcher too. :(
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I expected that was your objection. But it appears, to me, that scientists, including this one, are making good bridges towards a fuller realisation of reality, whether they are aware of it, or not. The only real crime is stating that which is false. Other than taking the implications of biological systems a bit too far, it seems he's quite on target. IOW, on the whole, the article seems mostly filled with facts well founded. That is the main point I wanted to make; that and to see whether I had missed something.

Thanks for the introduction. We met earlier. And thanks, I enjoyed the article.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:48 pm 
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You are welcome Roland. Thanks for being you.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:51 pm 
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bette wrote:
You are welcome Roland. Thanks for being you.
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I'll try to do better, next time.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:08 pm 
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Roland, don't just try, do! Oh my goddess, just kidding. Next time...next life? ;) What you do seems effortless (no trying to it) while I struggle to say what I really think, to know what I really think without just saying what someone else thinks that works for me. There is a fine line, sometime no line which is possibly an indication of apperceptionation of ideas, with some of my and other's thoughts. If that makes sense.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:13 pm 
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BTW, he did make one mistake. He said that monkeys (or apes) don't plan ahead like humans. He's wrong. In S. Amer. they've found monkeys that are practicing primitive agriculture. They actually have a food processing system that includes several tools and applied methods for harvesting and curing.

And I was reading the other day where a chimp in captivity has been observed gathering rocks and pieces of concrete from his pen, hoarding them, and using them the next day to throw at zoo pedestrians. Evidently he holds the gawkers in contempt. Who can blame him? I mean, he's held in captivity by persons wearing superior clothing, he has to procreate and defecate without privacy. What's a chimp to do, join the circus? So, he tosses missiles at unsuspecting Peeping Toms. More power to him.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:38 pm 
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I wonder if that is how the powers to be, and I am thinking of those that control us such as the video Rando shared described, see us? Them and the religious cartel (http://www.mail-archive.com/ugandanet@k ... 11654.html), of course, and now the drug cartels as they are multinational powers. Dressing in the finest garb, all of them; I just noticed (and made this connection) last night how lovely a Bishop's robe was, on TV. Primates are primates and all experience primate stuff, in my book.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:41 pm 
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To all,

The only problem I find with this article by Nobel Laureate Dr. Gerald Edelman is that it is based upon PMR concepts and thus not upon MBT concepts. As an article from the viewpoint of a neurologist doing this kind of research, working to create 'artificial consciousness', I find it interesting, especially their results with a cat sized brain model. One of my intuitions before I started writing my book or web site or had heard of Tom and MBT, except as TC in the Monroe books, was that our brains had the capabilities and characteristics that they do because of the large number of complexly interconnected neurons. Not a unique or greatly significant insight. But it seems that my intuition was in the direction of the truth, at least as they have discovered so far. That is, once they get to a neuronal system of the order of magnitude of neurons and synapses of a reasonable sized animal model, they begin to see self organizing behavior and brain like functioning, i. e. rhythmical oscillations of the electrical fields, when the 'brain model' is externally stimulated without any 'design' of the network other than making it of the right interconnection characteristics but randomly arranged, similar to a naturally occurring brain before it develops. Other, smaller scale, experimentation with neural networks had shown that they could be trained for pattern matching. In other words, they could be trained or alternatively phrased, they were self organizing if presented with a pattern stimulus. Once you get to human magnitude complexity, who knows what other self organizing characteristics and trainable functions will be demonstrated. Then create a brain with the organization level programmed by genetics at birth, our DNA schematic, provide sensory inputs and it will not be surprising if you get a whole order of magnitude of other effects and an artificial mind.

But based upon PMR concepts, there is no discussion of our mind existing elsewhere than in our VR virtual brains. There is no discussion of our virtual brains being based upon feedback from the nature and state of our minds as MBT describes being based upon a digital complex within the reality cells of AUM. But consider what they have accomplished. They have created robots based upon trainable neuronal networks and used them to play hockey after suitable training. And these robots with trainable 'brains' have exceeded the capabilities of other robots based upon computers programmed upon the basis of the existing level of AI concepts. There is no basis for claiming any level of consciousness for these hockey playing robots, but they certainly display more of a mind/decision space than the programmed computers they compete against successfully. What this should tell us is that the MBT model of the development of our minds is entirely likely as being the correct model for reality. Because a small scale neural network with trainability can be trained to play hockey better than we can program a computer to do. Thus a large scale neural network can be trained by outside stimuli to self organize into vastly more complex behaviors and capabilities. And this is the MBT model. That trial and error, trainability/trial paired with results consolidation, can result in something potentially existing as a mind. And that it is much more likely to arise in this way by natural selection than by a programmer's efforts.

Thus I see this article as very interesting as a beginning demonstration of the feasibility of the model presented by Tom in My Big TOE as providing a basis for eventually creating artifical minds with natural rather than 'artifical' or programmed intelligence. If they can reach the state with sufficiently large scale neuronal networks that the beginnings of minds appear, it will be proof to me of Tom's model within MBT. Because this will be exactly the situation as stated with minds in the digital environment of Indra's Net bootstrapping from naturally, randomly, occurring states. And they appear to be making significant progress in this direction indicative of just that. If they create a mind in this way, it will not be a proof of our minds existing within our PMR virtual brains, but rather of our minds existing within our 'reality cell' Consciousness Space existence within The One/AUM.

Ted


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