I have a question about culpability in this life. What happens next?

Someone like Hitler...was he just a catalyst? A character in Woody Allen's movie "Hannah and her Sisters" said "the question is not why the horrors of the Holocaust happened but why it hadn't happened before", (given our well known propensity for inflicting pain on our fellow sentient beings).
This person though has the distinction of being possibly the most vilified man in recorded history...with Stalin running a close second.
Was there no punishment at all for Hitler when he arrived in the stage after this VR?

Wonderful forum,
thankyou all so much
Pania

Hi Pania, why would you think Hitler got off scott free?
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Pania,

You misunderstand if you feel that the Consciousness System is a system based upon punishment and retribution, sinners and saints. Entropy as disorder, failure to comprehend and to be comprehensible, to understand and empathize with others, is nothing like sin, even when couched in terms of Absolute Free Will. Hitler would not have been punished as such nor perceived as having been subject to punishment. That does not say that he did not undergo a great deal of re education and therapy before being released for reincarnation in a new PMR experience packet. Nor does that say that he probably received future experience of a similar nature to what he had caused to be generated for many others. Not on the basis of either Divine retribution nor of karma, but as being determined to be of value in his development as an IUOC/FWAU. I have no direct knowledge of these kinds of details. There are no limitations on the understanding of the mind and motivations of a returnee from PMR and no limitations on knowledge of exactly what they did. It is all there in the data base, available for access. What will be done for Hitler or for any petty tyrant or anything in between will be based upon their optimum pathway for development, recovery of growth potential if necessary and the value to the Consciousness System. There is a great deal of evil done in secret throughout PMR and it will all be treated in this same way.

Ted

Bette,
the reason I thought that might be the case was
something that Ted had mentioned earlier about there being no punishment (regarding my comment about reincarnation as a cat..furry friends etc) made me wonder how the balance was kept. In MBT how would that individual unit of consciousness (Hitler) lower it's entropy.
Ted explained it very well.
I'm near the end of "Awakening" so I'd better order the next book of the trilogy.
I'm following Tom's prescription for meditating 2 x per day for three months and hopefully I will have an NPMR fairly soon

Cheers Pania

Ted
thankyou, I appreciate the explanation.
That does make a lot of sense
Cheers
Pania

Pania,

you could find further clarification in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2380&p=2725

quamta
thanks for the reference, I wasn't aware of that existing thread.
I have to stop watching the History channel's 2nd world war programs.
I do think it would have been more satisfying for the Italians having the opportunity to string up Il Duce than it was for the Allies to have nothing to vent on but a few charred remains in Schickelgruber's bunker.
Small picture reaction, I know

Pania

I have yet read MBT, so this is impudence of high order (me giving an opinion). But it has never stopped me before. I will just make clear that my opinion does not reflect MBT, which is in the mail.

I feel that seeking vengeance on anyone, even Hitler, cannot be low entropy or love. Yes, it is part of our natural spirit (along with murder and lots of other sugar and spice) to seek revenge on someone who has harmed us or others. If we cannot do it, then we like to rest easy thinking that a god figure or "the system" will do the dirty deed of vengeance for us.

Now, I do not claim to know how the universe really works. My spiritual discipline (Course in Miracles) would claim that everything here is ultimately an illusion projected from the mind beyond time and space (the true me, the true you). No one is actually hurt here because this isn't even real. I know, I know...that is hard to believe when you are in the midst of it - people on the starship Enterprise even managed at times to be killed on the holodeck. NOnetheless, perhaps if you take a bigger view and see Hitler as just a manifestation of a larger soul, you can see that (like someone noted) what he needs is not punishment per se but to instead develop EMPATHY for other living beings. In my opinion, this is one of the largest challenges facing humanity, to increase a sense of caring and empathy. There is very little empathy in evidence if you walk down the street of any city and look at the policies of our government towards the environment. Afterall, many Christians insist that only humans have souls. Meanwhile, some scientists still insist that only humans have true consciousness. Both camps then seem to think abuse and butchery of animals is just ducky. (Of course, anyone who has actually had a pet knows this is poppycock of the highest order).

Anyway, do YOU need Hitler to be punished? Are you afraid he will get off "scot free"? Does that anger you? Why? What if the purpose of existence is not to reward the good and punish the evil, but instead to grow up? That may entail having someone like Hitler undergoe what he inflicted on others, but not as punishment but as a means for him to get thru his thick head what it feels like to have others treat you cruelly.

Let's in our own way pray for each other rather than seek some sort of cosmic justice that will honor our Reptilian brain's need for blood! No one really gets away with anything. But does the universe actively participate in malice based vengeance? I hope not. None of us are holy and without fault. Who hasn't fallen short of the glory of da Lord, as the old Bible saying tells us.

Chandlersdad

What do I think?

Yes I'm okay with the notion that thugs will get their comeuppance either in this PMR or some other PMR.
Tom addresses the idea of constraints and that at some point there would be constraints against high entropy IUOC.
If evil entities in PMR are caught in time it may deter some others of the same mind.
Unfortunately we have plenty of high entropy types around in politics and elsewhere at this moment in VR.

Pania

When everyone talks about Hitler please remember that he was only one man. It took a lot of IUOCs making individual decisions to bring about the atrocities in WWII. In a lower lever entropy society Hitler may have just been thought of as a crazy racist and institutionalized for therapy. If there wasn't such a fear of death in our culture I imagine a lot of people would have opted to die rather than go along with decisions that they knew were wrong but were too afraid to go against.

It also reminds me of a podcast I heard with Richard Sutphen. He regressed a woman client that had been raped in this lifetime and was having a hard time dealing with it. Every lifetime he regressed her into she had also been raped. In her 8th lifetime she was a pedophile. She had carried this into 7 lifetimes resulting in very violent, painful experiences. Seven experience packets later she was able to integrate and release her life as a pedophile. So you can only imagine what experiences the higher level entropy consciousnesses will bring into their future lives.

I know Sainbury, that is what makes me cringe what I think of what I may have been or done before this life.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Wow very insightful thread. I would have to agree that I don't believe in the reward/punishment aspect of the universe also, I think that's a human trait we're trying to push in to the bigger reality. Just like humans made 'God' in their own image with many religions. One thing I want to add is I read the Holographic universe by Michael Talbott and although I don't agree with everything he said he cited research in to Near Death Experience that was very interesting. In his book he cites NDE'ers that crossed over mentioned that every thought, every action done to others will be reflected back on us when we cross over. All the pains we cause to other people will be felt in our life review and we have a choice to do it all over again to do it better, just like TC said in his book! I'm not saying this is the case but I'm open to this possibility.

I view Karma as me creating my lesson plan for my next incarnation. But then that's just me.

Of course, I have not been as actively negative (evil?) as Hitler, or Stalin, or Genghis Khan, or Ethram at least not in this incarnation, so maybe they were able to experience millions of simultaneous virtual reality playbacks at once to allow them to correct course.

However long it takes their individualized consciousness to either learn how to decrease entropy and make profitable choices or be "recycled" into primal awareness packets to start over again is of course - their choice.

That's my point of view having just finished My Big TOE for the first time.
It's the hardest book I've ever read, it's taken me 6 months to read it.
I've had a lot of time to devote to studying it, but I'm a slow learner.

You may find it easy to read, and I envy those who do. Now I have to put chapter 23 of Book 1 into practice.

_________________
Who said it would be easy? If it was easy, somebody else would have been given the assignment.

rchamberlin - I have been studying the book for a year and a half and I'm about to start my second read through. I didn't find it easy to read at all! But I was hooked as soon as I saw Tom's London lecture on YouTube.

Tom says somewhere that personalities that do not hold potential for growth (Hitler?) are retired permanently by the IOUC and their line does not go on. Somehow that idea is more comforting to me than the idea that the Hitler FWAU goes on.

Tom discusses Hitler specifically in the Toronto workshop during the question and answer section of the second day (I think so anyway. Day 2 Part 3.) He says Hitler wasn't all that unusual as far as being an evil entity. There are thousands more that would do the same thing if they could. Hitler was just given an exceptional opportunity to express the level of being that he was. He probably isn't deleted or relegated to existence as a clam on the bottom of the bay but is instead given much "counselling" in NPMR before being reincarnated in PMR in a position to learn the lessons he needs to learn. Without the opportunity to cause so much harm of course. No positions of power in other words.

The life review, viewed from the higher perspective was probably a terrible punishment in and of itself. Tom also mentions that Hitler "stirred the pot" on a large scale and gave millions of people great opportunities to lower their entropy. He mentions Viktor Frankl as a good example of this. It's all a matter of perspective.

Ramon