I'm not a man of many words, so I'll make it a short and simple question..

Is there any complications to consider when using hashish and "out of body" experiences purely as a way to entertain myself?

Edit: For those who don't know, hashish is concentrated cannabis.

This not being a 'druggie' site, I don't think anyone will know. Might you not, if able to go OOB while so stoned, come back to find your body incarcerated for drug use and possession? Not likely to do you any good metaphysically and you are talking recreational use anyway.

Ted

Thanks for your answer.

I know the implications that usage of drugs can have on my physical body. Like being thrown in jail and such. I also know that it's not likely to do me any Good metaphysically, so let's just put those issues aside..

Detaching ones self from the physical is a serious matter and something I think should be handled with great respect. So will be using OOB experiences along with drugs as an entertainment be a bad/wrong thing to do metaphysically? Could it have any negative effects on me in my quest for personally growth?

Undertaken for entertainment purposes with the use of stronger "recreational" drugs as opposed to some of the things like DMT which are even espoused by some as metaphysically enhancing, you will definitely not be doing yourself any good spiritually or metaphysically. Getting "high" for entertainment purposes is most definitely detrimental to the state of your mind and to its future potential states. Even using drugs like DMT which are espoused by some for metaphysical mind expansion is questionable in my opinion and repeating Tom's position. You may find the effects entertaining but that is not the purpose of meditation, for instance, which is to enhance your metaphysical understanding and improve the quality of your consciousness. You would be going in the opposite direction entirely with what you are asking about. That is, producing a lowering of your quality of consciousness that will be difficult to recover from and will degrade your potential for going OOBE, in our sense of the term, and potentially eliminate the possibility of spiritual/metaphysical progress in this life. This will be especially so if pursued further as is statistically probable if not probable in terms of addiction, either physiologically or psychologically to drugs and drug culture. It is over all a bad idea and contrary to the purposes of this bulletin board and Tom Campbell and his purposes in his published books of the My Big TOE trilogy.

Such is my opinion and position. Also the official position of this Bulletin Board.

Ted as Administrator

beyond Ted's succinct answer to your specific question, this does raise some tangential thoughts

not being a hashish user nor an OBEr, these thoughts are extrapolatory and theoretical only. You can also search this forum and the online MBTOE to read Tom's words in this area.

1) it seems that that mental control and discipline is central to achieving and maintaining the OBE state, so I am doubtful that hashish would be supportive of getting out and doing something productive/fun in NPMR if this is your goal

2) once in OBE, Tom reports that anything along these lines is like having grease and snow on your windshield as far as visibility, and this extents to alchohol, caffiene, sugar especially and so on.

3) so ask yourself this, lets say you have been dating a great girl for a few days/weeks/months and she says tonight is the night - do you show up stone cold sober or half out of it?

4) a friend shows up at your door in a Ferrari and says we are leaving in 30 minutes for the next town to close an important transaction, and we will have to speed through traffic - do you shower and pull yourself together or do you smoke something?

Ultimately I believe we all fundamentally live by this drive for fun and pleasure, and to avoid pain and discomfort, according to our sensor platform "design", which was optimized for the PMR environment over the millenia.

All of us grew up with cultural software (somewhat flexible) and firmware (somewhat baked in) layered on our hardware that trained us to seek pleasure and avoid pain through different means, and these differing trained responses are what generally drives socio-economic class.

Our lives are greatly driven by how we learned to respond to pain, one flavour of pain is boredom.

I believe boredom was inserted into our hardware to drive us to rather not be lazy, but rather to get off the couch and explore PMR and its inhabitants, furry and otherwise.

In this way, I believe a chemical response to boredom can be an existential crime philisophically and an offense to the gift of this life and this beautiful planet, and that your higher self knows this, potentially triggering negative feedback and a downward spiral if done beyond a tipping point.

Of course, there are no absolutes, there are exceptional circumstances, and some gin does find its way into my lemonade on occasion and caffeine as I write ; - )

my personal angle on this is that life is more authentically, deeply, entertaining when you are mining three pleasure zones in correct balance, which you are likely doing already...but if you are kind person, you will let me ramble on here

Hedonistic behaviors have their important place, but must be balanced with interactions with PMR that maximize your hedonistic pleasures over your entire lifetime, and to maximize your lifetime DELTA(t) cycles, which points to investing in education, work, thrift, savings, entrepreneurship, health, activities which themselves push pleasure buttons of accomplishment, but most importantly, get you off the couch interacting with others and provide funding so that your hedonism is sustainable and effective...the bifurcation of the 5 minute planning horizon vs 50 year planning horizon. We all know FWAUs who don't seem to be able to manage this two dimensional challenge well.

Into this mix Tom comes along and we throw the third leg of the tripod, trifucating the model (comparable to Tom's first order, second order, third order phrasing that he briefly touched on in MBTOE), which is the higher ruleset and its feedback, which translates into factoring in the impact on others while we engage in (forming intent, making decisions, implementing action, monitoring emotional feedback, adjusting strategy) seeking pleasure and avoiding pain throughout our PMR cycle, and getting this third cylinder of the engine tuned and working with the others together.

I think a good place to start with this is a 12 step-like approach (which by the way was based on Jung), forgiving everyone in your decision space for all the petty crap they have done to you, and seeking foregiveness for the not so petty crap you have done to others (calling people up and dropping by) - and monitor the emotional feedback, and return gentleness and empathy to those that attack you in petty ways (this does not extend to pacifism in the face of an existential threat, we are talking about the small stuff of everyday interaction, nor does it extend to being someone's floormat).

Meditation, like avoiding chemicals, and something Tom is very big on, is like cleaning your windshield with windex, which makes you more effective at seeking the positive feedback of the higher ruleset and navigating NPMR.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Lazy Vulpes: Detaching ones self from the physical is a serious matter and something I think should be handled with great respect.

There is no real "detachment" from the body... there really is no body to begin with. Being "out of body" is no more serious than being "in body" or in a dream. The only serious thing to consider is your own evolution toward love - your intent, your next choice.

Lazy Vulpes: So will be using OOB experiences along with drugs as an entertainment be a bad/wrong thing to do metaphysically? Could it have any negative effects on me in my quest for personally growth?

Yes, it has the potential to have a negative effect on your growth.

Take a look at what Tom has to say in this video:

http://youtu.be/lRar8IOwic8?t=1h23m2s

It might be useful to watch the entire video in the link above as it deals with the larger reality and OOB.

Hope that helps. Welcome!

_________________
-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"

Not much open-minedness going on here. I know Tom is proud to be a drug free explorer but the lack of Love and disdain for those who have a different understanding of THC is rude. I'm outta here.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Bette,

No one is saying anything about THC for medical purposes. The discussion has been about the effect of strong psychoactive medications, not THC, on metaphysical and quality of consciousness improvement.

Ted

I thought there was some useful information here.

Personally, I have no problem with the use of THC (other than the fact that it is illegal in my state). I no longer use marijuana or any other form of THC, but when I did, I saw marijuana as a benevolent addition to my natural environment. And I remember when I used to endulge, it always made me feel the connection to everything around me. I was inter-connected to all people and things. I was (as I recall) "at ONE" with the universe. My love and affection (for all people and things) was always heightened. And my creativity was (or seemed to be) increased.
But I remember observing some negative effects in many situations as well. Some people I have known seemed to develop a dependance on it. They NEEDED it ALL THE TIME. They felt that they could not function properly without it. So whenever they had it they were friendly and loving, but if they didnt have it they became cranky, irritable, and generally anti-social (exhibiting all the usual "drug seeking behaviors" usually associated with "stronger" drugs, such as heroin, or cocaine)

Also, I have observed, in some social situations, where the use of marijuana, and hashish were used as a means to engage in other "less than spiritual" behavior. It becomes a social "lubricant" and may loosen our "normal" inhibitions, and can become the focus of sexual pleasures.

So it may be that any potential (SPIRITUAL) "benefits" stemming from the use of THC (or other psychoactive drugs) may, once again, be offset by the potential "drawbacks".

Even though there may be many views on the use of drugs, and the effects and uses in the exploration of consciousness.

It is important that we are able to discuss it without letting our beliefs, ego and fears cloud our perceptions, and interfere with communication.

_________________
LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

I know that it isn't the purpose, hence my questions.


It is not. My goal is to have an entertaining evening. Nothing else. Everything have their place and time. What I will do once I've shifted my data stream is probably just flying around the universe visiting other galaxies. I like that, as it fascinate me.


Then let's call it shifting my data stream then, whatever works for you guys. ;)
Let's consider the intent in this scenario. It is not a hostile one, but nor is it a productive one...


Thanks for the link, but I've already watched those videos with the exception of the last, which I'll watch as soon as I've done some house cleaning after posting this :)


I wouldn't exactly call it "strong psychoactive medications" nor is this discussion about quality of consciousness improvement. It is about (as Tom put it) reading a comic book in a great library.

Let's continue using Toms metaphors. I guess my real question is if it is wrong to just go and read a comic book ones in a while as oppose to just always chewing away in the big heavy books with no pictures? I mean if the comic books are there, they should be read too, right?

"Wrong" is relative to intent and motivation, but not the action itself.

It really seems that you have already answered the question for yourself. I'm sure we will all survive either way :)

_________________
-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"

Lazy Vulpes,
Just curious and interested:Putting aside ideas about spiritual growth and such things,have you actually experienced successful OBEs on hashish? And have you had them naturally,without drugs? If so,how do they compare?

(I've never heard of such a thing,I didn't know that hashish had 'dissociative' effects.)

Hashish if used sparingly can be an aide to lowering entropy. If Tom does not know this - it merely shows his short comings in knowledge - and should be a lesson to those who blindly follow external teachers.

In India the yogi uses hashish for a reason - Shiva (ultimate consciousness) was supposed to be a hashish smoker (metaphorically speaking).

Unfortunately, it should only be used once in a while (like once a year) and only for spiritual reasons - that maintains a spiritual association with it - which is vitally important. In fact the genuine rastafarians in Jamaica only use it once a year for spiritual experiences as well.

Essentially in my experience with it, it merely amplifies what one is, the data stored - if that data is related to lowering entropy then the knowledge of how to lower entropy will be amplified and revealed.

I can say from my own experience that I only use the stuff once a year or even every two years - if the set and setting is powerfully spiritual then the hashish will amplify the experience - I can state categorically, that I can meditate 2 hours straight, cross legged with no back support - I have been meditating for over 15 years - so I know how to get into trance and can detect subtle changes - I am able to leave my body. I no longer care for experiences like I used to - but I can say that when I sat down to meditate on hashish I was pulled violently into my third eye within seconds of meditating (no 30 mins or an hour required) - tangible physical force ripped me, like the speed light through what seemed like walls of frequencies - each wall required immense surrender and letting go to maintain consciousness (memory/recall) - the end result was an experience and a knowing that I was an indistinct part of all that is. It was quite profound but once realised was no big deal....life goes on. C'est la vie.

Direct experience leads to faith - faith leads to knowing - knowing leads to a lack of fear - lack of fear leads to lowering of entropy - in my book. That's my take on it.

I don't know if what I am saying is related to "My Big Toe" as personally I think the books on "MY Big Toe" are not really for the average person at all - as some may have us believe - they are actually needlessly too complicated IMHO for the average person to understand. Hence it attracts egotistical power trippers who like to put others down on an intellectual premise. Pity as there is much to be shared even from the apparently "unintellligent".

Peace.

Yes, and no. I've experienced OBE on hashish before, even somewhat unwillingly.. But I haven't really tried to go out of body before. I don't see the reason for me to do so.( except having fun ;) ) I'm trying to become love and to do so I kind of capsule my current data input and focus on what's "beyond". In this state all I feel is love for all things and that is all I need (at least that's what I believe).



If it wasn't for hashish I'd never had heard about My Big TOE or ever felt the love that surrounds me. I'd be completely blind to reality. I would however had been a lot richer and a lot more successful.

Hashish have caused me a lot of pain over the years, but wasn't it for this pain I wouldn't have grown as much as I've done..

In the video link posted above, Tom discusses (and in my interpretation validates) the type of use you are referring to:
http://youtu.be/lRar8IOwic8?t=1h23m2s

Lazy Vulpes was referring to using hashish for entertainment. In that regard, I would say that it has the potential to dampen or hender growth. As do many, many other things that we all experience and work with.

There are countless ways to get to the top of the mountain. The question isn't so much about if something is right or wrong, but whether or not it stands to help us evolve and grow toward love. The answer to that question requires a great deal of honesty and humility and is up to each one of us to uncover and decipher for ourselves. That is part of the process if we choose to engage it.

_________________
-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"