Most people seem to think that PMR is the only reality, And most of mainstream science will have you believing its just the play of neurons firing off, Just your imagination! well that mind set we all know gets us no where, They seem to me to be ridding a exercise bike and think they are going some where. I think lay people like most of us on this forum would be wasting our time trying to but a subjective reality in the awareness of mainstream science. I will leave that to People like Tom, I get challenged all the time to explain to people that there is something more than PMR, I always try and start out with where they are at, My most effective approach is comparing the dream matter reality with the awakening PMR. I ask them where does all that physical matter come from, And what happens to it when you wake up. Then I tell them this awakening PMR is no different just different rules, And when you die you just wake up from the dream. That PMR is just your perception of the data, That really hits a cord with them to get them, To be open to the possibilities of a bigger reality that they are apart of. I just try and nudge people to find out for themselves, Seems like the thing to do. Fred searching for truth

Hey Fred, I can see your frustration discussing Meta and digital physics with the average Joe. I've givin up expressing these subjects with most, especially "Hardcore Atheist" who take this as a personal threat to thier world view.I now only faintly discuss it with those who ask me about it, at which I try to explain it the best I can, because of course I'm still learning myself.

What is a "Hardcore Atheist" worldview please?
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Fred,

If you want to give people something relatively concrete as in becoming part of American culture, why not talk about NDEs. They are very commonly known about these days. There are many web sites where people write about them. Search for 'near death experiences'. There have been many recorded where things were found out while OOB during an NDE that could not have otherwise been found out. A search on the Internet will find all of this. In regards to this also it is not that uncommon to encounter people who have had ADCs or After Death Communications with recently deceased relatives.

Another thing that tends to raise interest is 'information from previous incarnations' which also brings up much information on a search. Children who know about details and persons from their past life who have been brought in contact with those people and tell them things that they could not possibly know except to have 'been there'. P.M.H. Atwater was involved in this research and has written about it as well as NDEs.

Then there is good old Robert Monroe who is not that unknown in the general population. Also past life regression with Michael Newton who is again a known person on the Internet.

Tom's more detailed model and concepts typically works better if someones interest has already been raised with these more New Age kinds of interests. Tom has the world view that these kinds of things can fit into and be readily explained. But someone typically must have an existing interest in metaphysics to be attracted to it first.

Ted

Hi Bette, Its a reference I use for someone who is not only an atheist but overly materialistic in their world view and regards QM and digital physics as woo-woo science. They are some of my best friends actually, but discussing philosophical or spiritual ideas with them is never a good option.
I used to watch the Atheist experience and chimed in my replies now and again, but I am presently banned for life for mentioning the DCQE experiment. HA HA.. Those guys on that show are hardcore to the bone.

Here's my neuvo-mathematical formula for

QM & DP = WOOWOO ( note caps, for lots of emotion by the responder;-)

I couldn't believe it the first time I ran across it, but it most certainly is a view I've run across online.

P.S.

The 'formula' above is also a bit of my humor, for whatever it's worth.

Please clarify. Does this mean do a search? Is the first item of that search what is intended? Why not just post the link? We don't need posting ambiguity on top of quantum ambiguity.

Ted

Fundamentalist Atheism ; - )

Some others as well have an authentic spiritual view behind their so called atheism, and they are what could be called Nominal Atheists (slightly tongue in cheek mirror of Nominal Christians), where you see many ironic scenarios play out where the Nominal Christians are interacting with Nominal Atheists, and its these Nominal Athiests who are actually applying spiritual or religious other-centred principles correctly.

Bette, to revisit an old interplay, do you see what I mean about how people use theism or "God" as shorthand for para(beyond)-materialism=NPMR?

In this experimental classification system, you might represent the most extreme version of a Nominal Athiest on the planet, passionately para-materialist, yet passionately "Atheist" - but you would be the true Theist, in terms of what Theism actually means

so then the question becomes...regarding your bible thumping sister, is she a real Theist, intuiting NPMR, or is she a nominal Theist, using her belief and self image as a Christian, as an instrument of ego - if you are both authentic para-materialists, there should be no barrier to connecting and communicating at the soul level, perhaps you have bridged this already.

One can also flip this around (generally speaking...this is not a poke at you personally)...am I a real TOEist, intuiting/experiencing NPMR, hearing and understanding the implications for other-centeredness, or am I a nominal TOEist, using my belief and self image as a TOEist, as an instrument of ego

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Yes I see how some people use the metaphor "God" for anything they don't understand (para) when they aren't meaning the Biblical God of Fear and myth used to control the free will of other for its (Church) own profit. It's really mean I think because "para" stuff isn't Fear based at all and it is associated with the term "God" and "god" because of the mixed up use of the same metaphor with something not real with something that is real (the LCS). That's one of my things of course to get people to say what they mean and mean what they say by obnoxiously pointing it out all the time that it sounds like they are talking about "not god" so I guess I'm a nontheist.

My sister and I still have things to work through but we are "okay" as in the family tradition of pretending nothing happened. We both picked up that from our mom most likely. We've spoken on the phone with the last couple months and Katie and I have mentioned needing to get down there for a visit so it's like that. She believes our mom is in heaven and I understand how that helps her.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Pretending nothing happened is 50% of being love! ; - )

The secret to any relationship is a short memory...

http://www.firststepcounseling.net/soci ... lationship

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?