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 Post subject: Re: If A Tree Falls
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 6:58 am 
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I would say, that I'd rather with Patrick. Nothing exists outside of us, and everything is rendered to each of us personally and even more. The same forest each time would be rendered to one somehow as a different forest, according to one's state of alertness and awareness. Otherwise forest doesn't exist at all, as one's brain doesn't exist at all too. VR is VR all the time.

Lena

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 Post subject: Re: If A Tree Falls
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 4:28 pm 
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Lena wrote:
I would say, that I'd rather with Patrick. Nothing exists outside of us, and everything is rendered to each of us personally and even more. The same forest each time would be rendered to one somehow as a different forest, according to one's state of alertness and awareness. Otherwise forest doesn't exist at all, as one's brain doesn't exist at all too. VR is VR all the time.

Lena
Sure in Reality. :) I was speaking to Patrick's mythical views.
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 Post subject: Re: If A Tree Falls
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 4:20 am 
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The forest and trees exist as potential probabilistic data. When viewed then a sample is taken from that probability and returned as a virtual reality experience. What is observed will be consistent with any previous data/observations made. If an observation is made of a tree that looks like it may soon fall, then a later observation may well find a fallen tree, but the tree never actually fell.

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 Post subject: Re: If A Tree Falls
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:14 am 
AscensionAddiction wrote:
The forest and trees exist as potential probabilistic data. When viewed then a sample is taken from that probability and returned as a virtual reality experience. What is observed will be consistent with any previous data/observations made. If an observation is made of a tree that looks like it may soon fall, then a later observation may well find a fallen tree, but the tree never actually fell.

AA, just to take this a step further to show this is a subjective reality, even if someone observed something does not mean it will be constant from that point on. If that sentient is out of the game or can not remember, then that data that was observed, a tree that looked like it may fall, is no longer in this reality, a later observation may show no tree or a healthy tree, another words, another probability can be pulled out of the distribution consistent, or not consistent with that observation of the previous one. Because that data is no longer in this reality. Very weird and flaky. Sabby


Last edited by sabby on Thu May 17, 2012 6:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: If A Tree Falls
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:24 am 
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Yes thanks for that sabby, you have explained more clearly what I was meaning by consistent; consistent with available data, not consistent with the idea that an objective reality has been manifested.

It is mind bending stuff but great fun too. My favourite is that we don't have a brain unless someone opens up our skull to look at it :-)


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 Post subject: Re: If A Tree Falls
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:27 am 
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Sorry, but I can't resist.
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Very weird and flaky Sabby
Sabby, does this mean that you are accepting becoming weird and flaky like the rest of us here?

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: If A Tree Falls
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:54 am 
That is certainly one forum rule and requirement that i have never violated! Sabby


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 Post subject: Re: If A Tree Falls
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 9:17 am 
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Ted Vollers wrote:
Sorry, but I can't resist.
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Very weird and flaky Sabby
Sabby, does this mean that you are accepting becoming weird and flaky like the rest of us here?

Ted


quote "If you are not into weird, you have joined the wrong club" - TC

I know you are just kidding around, but I would suggest that MBTOE is actually anti-flake....[for the benefit of anyone who does not get the joke]

I associate "flake" with new agers who are very dis-associated with the material aspects of PMR

Wheras MBTOE, Tom and his metaphysical provenance ...Bob Monroe/TMI, is the territory of engineers, physicists, military remote viewers, professionals and business owners ..very anti-flake stuff ; - )

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 Post subject: Re: If A Tree Falls
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 8:50 pm 
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Yes Randy,

I agree. At first glance it may seem like just another bunch of "flakes" here in this forum, but what separates us from the other (really flakey...lol) new age groups? Is it that the "New Age" philosophy (expressed metaphorically) fits into MBT, but MBT metaphor (as a digital, virtual reality simulation existing within consciousness space) doesnt always fit into the New age ?

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 Post subject: Re: If A Tree Falls
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:47 am 
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pgtrue wrote:
Yes Randy,

I agree. At first glance it may seem like just another bunch of "flakes" here in this forum, but what separates us from the other (really flakey...lol) new age groups? Is it that the "New Age" philosophy (expressed metaphorically) fits into MBT, but MBT metaphor (as a digital, virtual reality simulation existing within consciousness space) doesnt always fit into the New age ?


I would be wary of thinking that MBT is 'the best' or the most comprehensive model available. To me it sounds not a million miles away from saying 'my religion is better than yours'.

Let's take two models of reality and represent each as a circle. Overlap the circles so you have a simple Venn diagram.

Someone who sees the world from the viewpoint of MBT will look at another model and see it as fitting within MBT, i.e. their perception of the other model is actually just the overlapping part of the other circle.

From the viewpoint of the other model they can do exactly the same with MBT and see it as fitting within their model if they too just see the overlapping part of the MBT circle.

For example George Kavassilas describes an experience that could be interpreted as being an experience of going beyond the AUO and experiencing different AUOs all of entirely different constructs to this one.

Depending on your point of view you could put this experience into the overlap with MBT by interpreting it differently or you could see it as something from another model that falls outside of the overlap with MBT.

MBT will be 'the best' model for people who resonate with the analogies and metaphors used. For others it wont be very useful at all. So I am wary of thinking that the model that resonates best for me is The Best model available.

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 Post subject: Re: If A Tree Falls
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:27 am 
AA, this model is not the best for everyone, it is the only scientific model i know of that explains QM and why light is a constant, in correlation with (reality) the world at large. I would say it is unique, and for me it answers those age old questions and my subjective experiences far far better, and with fewer abstractions. This model is not for everybody most people will just shrug it off. I think this model will catch on in mainstream science slowly in the future. Sabby


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 Post subject: Re: If A Tree Falls
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 8:41 am 
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AscensionAddiction wrote:
pgtrue wrote:
Yes Randy,

I agree. At first glance it may seem like just another bunch of "flakes" here in this forum, but what separates us from the other (really flakey...lol) new age groups? Is it that the "New Age" philosophy (expressed metaphorically) fits into MBT, but MBT metaphor (as a digital, virtual reality simulation existing within consciousness space) doesnt always fit into the New age ?


I would be wary of thinking that MBT is 'the best' or the most comprehensive model available. To me it sounds not a million miles away from saying 'my religion is better than yours'.

Let's take two models of reality and represent each as a circle. Overlap the circles so you have a simple Venn diagram.

Someone who sees the world from the viewpoint of MBT will look at another model and see it as fitting within MBT, i.e. their perception of the other model is actually just the overlapping part of the other circle.

From the viewpoint of the other model they can do exactly the same with MBT and see it as fitting within their model if they too just see the overlapping part of the MBT circle.

For example George Kavassilas describes an experience that could be interpreted as being an experience of going beyond the AUO and experiencing different AUOs all of entirely different constructs to this one.

Depending on your point of view you could put this experience into the overlap with MBT by interpreting it differently or you could see it as something from another model that falls outside of the overlap with MBT.

MBT will be 'the best' model for people who resonate with the analogies and metaphors used. For others it wont be very useful at all. So I am wary of thinking that the model that resonates best for me is The Best model available.


Valid points.

I think one aspect that escapes non-science types, including myself, is how much Tom is a hard science guy, and the extent to which the so called spiritual aspect is apparently secondary to his Intent.

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 Post subject: Re: If A Tree Falls
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 9:33 am 
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AA,

It still sounds to me as if you are a good bit shy of working all the way through MBT. AUO was only the first stage result of the first meta reality and the development of the One Consciousness. From there it went on to become AUM where Manifold replaces Oneness and there are in fact many, a Manifold, of realities like Our System and which vary considerably, being different experiments and experiences in Consciousness. What I have not ever seen anything like in any other model is the description of a model for the nature and development of consciousness as the LCS.

Tom's intent was indeed science and not spirituality or a New Age audience such as George Kavassilas clearly seeks with talk of Ascension and "the transformation of our Divine Mother Earth and her Humanity into Beings of Light and Universal Creators". Many fields of science are in fact bringing consciousness into their modeling and understanding of reality. Aiming for a New Age audience would have brought instant dismissal from most who consider themselves to be 'scientists'. They must be forced gradually to that viewpoint as it is seen to answer questions and provide insights that are not otherwise available.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: If A Tree Falls
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 2:26 am 
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Yes Ted you are absolutely right, I am approaching about 1/3 of the way through the book. I'm not able to read as much as I would like and so have relied on youtube videos to supplement my current limited understanding of MBT, but my enthusiasm for what I've heard is such that I can't wait until I've finished the book before posting :-)

I was however deliberately using AUO, rather than AUM, in my illustrative example to discuss the hypothetical possibility that maybe someone could have an experience beyond AUO, i.e. beyond what Tom has experienced, and beyond what Tom suggests it is possible for an IUOC to experience. If that was the case then someone who follows the MBT model, if they thought that MBT was the best and most comprehensive model available, may not look too deeply into such an experience and instead take a superficial look at it and put it into, for example, the New Age category because of the similar language used there. (George Kavassilas is, by the way, one of the most outspoken critics of the whole New Age movement I have heard.)

So personally I am aware that I have a propensity to make models such as MBT into belief systems and proponents of those models into gurus, and I definitely have a tendency to think that I have found the right and best answer to life, the universe and everything. So despite my enthusiasm for MBT I am making special efforts to remain open-minded and sceptical.

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 Post subject: Re: If A Tree Falls
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:20 am 
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Where is George Kavassilas' criticism of New Age approaches to reality? He certainly sounds like New Age to me. Dimensions, ascension, etc. with his overview amounting to generalities and vagueness as best I can see it. He seems tied to a time table linked to the Mayan calendar which has recently been found to say nothing in particular about anything special happening in December of this year. To repeat a link I provided to one report on this: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/technology/ ... -doomsday/ By the way, thank you for sticking to the purpose of this bulletin board rather than just proselytizing for what is obviously your present choice of starting concepts as it is obviously now your starting point and the source of your 'avatar' name. Persons are welcome on that basis as opposed to just seeking readers for their own web sites. There are several board members, including myself, with their own web sites based upon an origin with the concepts of MBT. My web site does not start from Tom's work but is very much subordinate at the end to Tom's work and I maintain it as only a matter of describing other approaches to Tom's work from more general mysticism.

Tom does not state the links to past perceptions of reality that match his model, but I do. I am preparing pages on the Wiki that do so. They will be made public after Tom has reviewed them. I have described this before on the board. Tom mentions only the Void as the beginning of everything out of ancient mysticism and metaphysics. Then he goes into a more science based description of the development of consciousness and our reality as we experience it. You might look at the model as written up on the Wiki. http://wiki.my-big-toe.com/index.php/Th ... _Link_Page It might provide you with a clear understanding of what gets stated in the books by Tom. It is not written as beginners level however with all the discussion. There is a very succinct way to state what Tom says in his books, linking to pure mathematics as well as ancient mysticism.

I suspect that George Kavassilias' references to other systems amounts to the multiple systems that make AUO into AUM. Tom does a certain amount of speculation as to the possible existence of other systems with other consciousnesses such as AUM but basically they would not be available to us under the present model. Whether we could communicate if they were encountered would depend upon whether there is only one version of those aspects of pure mathematics involved in the base level development of AUM and the LCS and which we do not have direct access to. That is, when viewed as a cellular automaton, would other AUMs have developed from the same version and rule set for a cellular automaton which resulted in the development of this particular instance of an AUM. Would they have followed the same path of development and resulted in comparable systems? We do not know the rule set for this Cellular Automaton or whether it is a unique basis for the development of a consciousness system such as the one we inhabit or if there are other aspects of pure mathematics, other rule sets for CA, that are equally capable of developing consciousness and resulting in the creation of an AUM level 'being' or system. If the rule sets were different, communication might not be possible. Compare this to trying to connect railway systems where the width between rails were different as an analogy and so the wheel spacing on one system would not match the wheel spacing on another system and trains not be able to switch from one system to the other. In any case, that would be a problem for AUM to solve at the system level as it is far above our 'pay grade'. It is presumed that such a situation has not arisen so far as the provision for consciousness to us all as IUOCs by AUO in becoming AUM as providing 'someone to talk to' and something to occupy all of the time available is part of our understanding of the reasons that things have developed as they have.

Ted


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