Not if I can help it.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

WRT MBT becoming a religion, I don't think it ever will because of these two simple reasons:

1) It doesn't have alluring enough rewards (For example, eternal bliss on a cloud or arbitrary amount of virgins)

2) It doesn't have any brutal punishment for being a "disbeliever"

Humans are sheep like as someone else mentioned and respond more to being prodded into doing things like cattle. All major religions (to my knowledge, I may be wrong) cater to this by having the carrot and sticks model of extreme reward and equally if not more extreme punishment.

MBT is a model of how reality works that doubles as a guide for living. It's no different to any other scientific theory/study like evolution, biology or chemistry etc.

The only way MBT or its concepts can become religion is if some charlatan or group of charlatan's create their own offshoot of TOEism with rules, punishments and a social hierarchy system.

Randy,

why are you trying to align MBT with religion? PMR virtual inhabitants do not need another pacifier/religion. They are big kids now. To move forward and be able to pull up themselves by their bootstrips kindergarten kids need/have to learn who they are, where and what is a beginning of their existence. This is a time to wake up, and religion in general is an old bitten path. It creates hierarchy to manage the rest of us. MBT religion = a small group in charge having power on one side, and those who come to worship Consciousness and Big Cheese on Sundays or Friday eve.

MBT is about freedom of choice according to personal awareness and decision space of each individual sentient being. Religion is about control of freedom of choice and information rationing for those who are not in charge.

An idea of TOEism could be very much confusing for newcomers. It is good enough, that some other BBs call us a cult. IMHO inventing semireligious metaphors are not a good idea, when we talk about MBT, LCS and Consciousness.

I respect Tom's wish do not say bad things about religion and god, but I cannot imagine that Tom has a slightest desire to see his model to turn into another religion. Tom has mentioned in a book, that he deliberately avoided any religious metaphors and references and his own metaphors are based on scientific terminology. He is addressing scientists, and a religious affiliation is a wrong way to attract their attention.

Lena

_________________
'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.

I apologize. I should not be drifting into language and metaphors that make people uncomfortable.

The key is to focus on supporting the Boston initiative, and Tom supports the formation of regional groups such as this, and looking ahead to the formation of group 2, and possibly thinking if any profitable constraints or rulesets that would keep these initiatives TOEish rather than non-TOEish, given our fears or concerns about such things.

My key observation regarding consciousness oriented gatherings is that they get into trouble when a professional paid priesthood forms, have paid staff salaries to cover, or they start buying real estate (ie. Churches) or selling products.

I think if one were to stictly ban any activities such as this, and keep money well away from things, most of the BS would be avoided. It would at least be a significant improvement, and be consistent the example that Tom and Ted, and MBTOE events provide.

An idea for governance came to me, as a model to operate in the absence of the founder. Members vote to create a pool of 3 to 5 qualified leaders, there would be separate offices for PMR affairs and NPMR affairs for example, but you would let the role of a dice determine the final outcome of any election, giving NPMR and uncertainty the final say!

The key with leaders, is to select those that do not want the job, have no ego feedback from doing the job, but nevertheless answer the call to duty, when the community asks them.

It would be nice to have such methods in place, with the explicit blessing of Tom, before his departure, in place of the usual wrangling that takes place when no "will" is established.

If it is his will that any groups be disbanded, I could accept that as well. If there are to be groups...how is this to be structured to avoid all the BS that is to be expected...if we follow the normal path?

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Reason would suggest that any leading groups that might form would not be based in this PMR, but maybe in some reality near-by. They would not be religions. They might exist within belief systems. Such authority as exists would be based on merit, ability, and history, and would almost certainly be situationally dependent.

Just my opinion.

Montana

Great post really.

1) Ted, as far as the procedure of this special newcomers board is concerned I think that it still is a good idea to appeal to the general community to post here only with great care for the thread opener. But, I do not think that by any means, we should create a comfty-zone to lure in new board members. If someone finds their way here and the way we talk about and discuss things, view and reflect them appeals to them and resonates with their intents and desires for data-exchange on the particular subject we happen to ponder - they are most welcome to stay and participate. If it should be otherwise they are most welcome to find a place for them where their desires are met by a more resonating environment.

Although it's a pitty that the thread-opener of this particular discussion seems to have disappeared again - for whatever reasons, I don't think that we should celebrate new board members too much. Gaining a mass of sorts is - at least to my understanding - not the purpose of this whole thing. Being polite, open and supportive on the other hand are purposes I see. So in short: We should be caring and helpful - but not artificially "love bombing" newcomers... This board has a very great level of conversation and I think it is save to post here without being ridiculed by anyone. So, a welcome-zone is fine until it does not become a non-free-speech-zone... ;)

2) Bette, I sense some aggression in you when you talk/write about religion, especially Christianity. And I can only agree with the others who have so nicely tried to point out the underlying structure they see behind the teachings of Jesus. Especially this friendly reminder:



Calling something BS is a pretty strong judgement. And as far as my opinion goes you don't have enough data to confirm that claim of yours.

All I want to get at - if I may venture to comment - is that love and understanding of another are not exactly fostered by calling the reference frame of the other bullsh*t. Especially as you seem to have no practical experience with the results of that particular path.

To say "BS!" without even allowing the possibility of the other viewpoint to at least potentially be as valid as one's own is fanaticism or at the very least stubborn belief on your side...

Just because some people didn't understand the whole thing and made weird claims about the person teaching it and promised heaven to those who followed and hell to those who didn't - does not mean that the underlying event is false. Would you make that claim to all other religions throughout the world, too? And what would stop me from saying: "There is no NPMR. That's BS. Show me some proof! Or else I reject it as the hope of some post-modern metaphysical derelict." Isn't that a similarly narrow minded approach that does not try to understand the underlying logic of this particular theory/teaching?

BTW: I don't have any problem of equating LCS/AUM/AUO with God. They share the same attributes - and how if not by their attributes and effects could we determine their nature. If their similar in nature they might as well be similar by name. When the bible says something like "And God spoke to XYZ and told him XYZ" is it not similar to our modern day accounts of e.g. Tom saying: "And then the LCS gave me a roter (or how Monroe called these data-packages) or put me in a test situation so that I could try to overcome my attachment to such and such a personal fear and grow toward love." How is this different in essence? I don't see it. And if you go about and take that for real, without having experienced an at least similar event yourself, you are being even more similar to those religious fanatics we were talking about... No offense, Bette. But I am having a hard time ignoring your rants.

3) Randy,

I also commented on your ideas in regards to an MBT-organization in another thread:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7028&start=45



Even if this would actually work - because these days almost nothing works without money being involved at some point - how would this save this imagined organization from developing power-patterns based on a person's "understanding"/charisma/being feared/loved? I have seen such groups from the inside. Groups with the same kind of delusion: that if you just keep the money out - the nasty things don't emerge. And I can say with confidence that - at least in my direct experience and also from the study of other such cases - it does not work. Where there are people - there is power. Whether it expresses itself through money, sex, devotion, fanaticism, heroism or however. Every group has its leaders. And the more tight and regulated a group becomes - the more power these leaders get. So, for me any kind of MBT-organization is out of the question. I love my freedom, your freedom and everybody else's freedom and freedom to come too much as to wanting it to be put it risk to be corrupted by - in the worst case - a self appointed MBT-priesthood... :-/



Just to stress my point a bit more: Who will determine the quality of such leaders to be? The group? How? Will there be a council? How will it be formed? Will there be no council? Then will the mass decide? Or will everybody be allowed to be qualified? What then is qualification? Who will be able to define it? Who able to judge it? And who should then follow this able leader? And what kind of decisions would he/she have to make? Could he/she expell me from the community for heresy? Could such an able leader be replaced in the case that he loses the organization's trust? In what event? Who will be the judge, if the actually most able person is already the leader? Will an unable person or the mass judge the leader's ability? What if the LCS gives a sh*t about your organization and doesn't participate in your dice games?! ;)

And why all this rule-hassle anyway? :)

If you haven't already you might want to review my other comment in the other thread I linked to above. There I explain the general distrust I have toward any form of organization in regards to MBT.

_________________
"Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world."

- Dao de jing, 1.

Religion is a Belief System, BS.

I've studied enough to know that religions are based on myths presented "as if" they were true, hence lies. I also have enough understanding to see how people are harmed by the lies because I am not under the power of the lies so can see.

I'm passionate not aggressive, because it is important.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Bette,

well then. You are entitled to your view on things as I am to mine...

_________________
"Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world."

- Dao de jing, 1.

You and Randy are a matched pair, in a Yin-Yangy way. <{ ;-D

How you two can have actually been in the same room for more than ten minutes without the police having been called to the scene is quite beyond my fathoming! ....Tom's guides must have realized that no insurance had been taken out on the proceedings and intervened with some sort of astral mellowent sprinkled in the atmosphere of the place.

-Montana

Many people go to a read only mode.

Lena

_________________
'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.

"Just to stress my point a bit more: Who will determine the quality of such leaders to be? The group? How? Will there be a council? How will it be formed? Will there be no council? Then will the mass decide? Or will everybody be allowed to be qualified? What then is qualification? Who will be able to define it? Who able to judge it? And who should then follow this able leader? And what kind of decisions would he/she have to make? Could he/she expell me from the community for heresy? Could such an able leader be replaced in the case that he loses the organization's trust? In what event? Who will be the judge, if the actually most able person is already the leader? Will an unable person or the mass judge the leader's ability? What if the LCS gives a sh*t about your organization and doesn't participate in your dice games?! ;)

And why all this rule-hassle anyway? :) "

Again, I think the fundamental disagreement we have is that I believe these challenges already exist within the probable database and Tom explicitly supports the formation of groups beyond the MBTOE event configuration.

Past experience suggests that because the implicit TOEism of MBTOE pushes human primordial religious buttons, people will by impulse gather in physical space around this idea and personality, and with gathering, you are going to get the usual challenges and temptations of testosterone and ego.

Something being hard, or something not working well in the past, is not a valid reason for not trying to do it better this time.

anyway, things are proceeding regardless...someone has recently formed a meetup.com in London specifically on MBTOE.

another way to go would be to encourage a process fractal which would explore many gathering models, and see which one gets traction. This of course will occur on its own.

the only purpose of this discussion is to determine if there is any potential for rational analysis and community guidance to this process, or any consensus on a basic ruleset beyond throwing up our hands or embracing anarchy.

a pattern I am starting to detect is that we argue about things here and then Tom drops something into a youtube talk to help clarify things, which points to keeping up with Tom's most recent youtube videos.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

".... and Tom explicitly supports the formation of groups beyond the MBTOE event configuration. "

That's quite a different thing from forming, or trying to form, a religion.

Maybe a better strategy would be to visit your local bishop, and try to sell MBT to him.... thus co-opting catholicism with reason, rather than reason with catholicism.

Montana

"

I embrace anarchy. If you want to start anything the like just follow your inner guidance and the groups desires and motivations. People are different. No such group will be like the other.

"I’ve concluded that genius is as common as dirt. We suppress our genius only because we haven’t yet figured out how to manage a population of educated men and women. The solution, I think, is simple and glorious. Let them manage themselves." - John Taylor Gatto

_________________
"Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world."

- Dao de jing, 1.

this is responding to Montana....I have not yet read Nemo's posting

yes, where we have this analytical stumbling block is the definition of religion - which is based on a misunderstanding - in reality, I share everyone's fear and loathing regarding how religions or associations of individuals or forums of any kind, play out

again, a religion is any association of individuals which includes an NPMR element - most here appear to define the word as "an association of assholes mired in belief", which of course describes how much of religion or even TOEism actually appears from the outside ; - )

I am quite prepared to give up using the word religion, given this limiting factor

we should try to be factual however, and part of being factual is that the ism implied by MBTOE will replace Christianity or Catholicism, or absorb it, not due to Tom's intent, but because it may actually be true and profitable, notwithstanding the organizations desire to stay under the radar and hide from the Christian pogrom, which Ted fears

indeed, one of the strengths of the Catholic meme is that it absorbs local culture and popular movements into its system, and I am very aware of this possibility, neigh probability in the future probable database - that Catholicism itself might become the most effective proponent of MBTOE

I am quite sure that if I approached the Dominican monestary up the street from me, MBTOE would be greeted with open scepticism. The Dominicans are an order of philosopher priests, mostly PhDs who teach in seminaries and universities.

I really don't want to stay on this legacy meme (religious) theme - it is however relevant due to the OP and thread title. I am indeed sceptical that this data I have is helpful. On the other hand, there is going to be a lot of overlap with this subject area that will need to be worked through, not to mention orientation of others with this background.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?