also look at puffed quinoa - they are like miniature rice crispies in texture and taste, but very high protein and very healthy - would do a very nice in a chocolate bar...and there seems to be a bit of a quinoa craze happening in health food

we get a bit of a quinoa "high" from eating it

I use boiled quinoa like rice for savory dishes

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Sainbury,

I think even those of us who are in some ways disagreeing with you believe you are right about the abuses and atrocities in the meat industry. And it is those abuses that originally set you on the path to where you are today philosophically.

I believe that a social initiative, which will progress incrementally, is the only way to solve the many problems that exist with our entire food system. Look how far we've come with the issue of smoking over the last 50 years. So looking at first steps, such as "How do we begin to promote a reduced demand for meat in the general population?" is an important task. And it takes more than "awareness" of the conditions that exist in the meat producing industry.

Everyone tells us to make healthier choices and choose plant based food. Fast food places typically offer "healthier choices" now. But the reality is those healthier choices tend to be way more expensive, and frankly, unaffordable for a lot of people. My local grocery store has a delicious looking salad bar and olive bar that I walk past every time I go there because I can't afford it. The salad costs $4.99 a pound. The olive bar costs $7.99 a pound. Chicken leg quarters, on the other hand, are 68 cents a pound and advertised prominently in their weekly ad paper this week. What do you think poor people who are having a hard time filling up their gas tank to get to work are going to choose?

With most people focusing on education and careers these days in order to survive economically, less people have the time and knowledge to actually spend time shopping for and cooking real food. The don't have time for the cleaning up process either. The demand is for "quick, easy and cheap" because many don't have the luxury of having the extra time to spend on food preparation. My local McDonald's offers 49 cent hamburgers every Tuesday which translates into a "quick, easy and cheap" meal solution, but not a very good choice on many different levels.

You (and the rest of us) use goods and services every day that are provided by people working for wages so low that they don't have the time or money to provide adequate, healthy meals for their families.

You inadvertantly help corporate executives get rich off the work of underpaid, uninsured laborers. This is every bit as bad as what goes on in the meat industry.

If all other factors were equal I think most (or at least many more) people would gladly eliminate their consumption of meat.

So my question is, how do we start to make it realistically possible for everyone to make the choices that would benefit both the animals and themselves?

regarding simply the health aspect, there is nothing more potent than caloric reduction, regardless of what you eat - if that simple burger is all you eat, you skip the sugar water and deep fried potatoes, you are probably in not too bad shape health wise.

I think the ethics regarding humans is different in that humans have incredibly wide decision space, while farm animals are slaves without decision space in most aspects.

...again, I am not against vegetarianism...I would just like to neaten up the food model.

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Randy, it gets back to having a TOEist community, one of which leads the way against the destruction of sentient`s for profits. you know most of this exist, because of simple economics, it is just good business. Sabby

Jeanne212, just do the best you can. Remember it's not about the act, it's your Intent. Eating meat or not eating meat is not the issue. If your Intent is to feed your family the best way you can, then I see no problem in that.

I would like to agree with kroeran that if you're going to be vegetarian for moral reasons, then I think veganism is just a tiny step away. The same moral reasoning applies (decision space).

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Mike

"Lab studies show high-fructose corn syrup can actually sabotage your smarts in just 6 weeks. "

http://www.rodale.com/health-effects-hi ... d_readmore

I have no doubt these things fog the mind up, can you imagine the effects of continually doing drugs and alcohol. Tom does not point these things out lightly, he knows they are a major block, as i also. Denial is a very strong characteristic that comes with the data of experiencing these virtual bodies in PMR. I try to identify these blocks that shrink my reality, i am totally addicted to a clear mind, and a manageable life. I found it feels much much better than doing these other things that gave me a quick hit, but really got me nowhere. Now i can work on the other things the increase my entropy much more effectively, negative emotions, (fear mostly). Even with a clear mind and a strong intent to lower ones entropy, it is still very difficult ,it is no cake walk. Doing these other substances i found i had, a much less of a chance to evolve positively. Slim to none. Sabby

thinking about all those greedy profit seeking capitalists for a moment...

most are merely seeking efficiency according their personal mental models

the mental model will inform the perceived decision space, with an array of options, along a continuum from absolute small picture selfishness all the way over to absolute "other"-ishness

according to the model, other is not so other, so sustainable "selflessness" is in reality just a more effective experience of balance

persons with a more limited PMR model, who do not consider animals to be sentience, will be oblivious

==

its not so much destruction of sentience (which would be hunting) as the creation of the cycle of intentional birth and death for creating meat. Sentience within the PMR is created as well as destroyed, and there is more sentience as a result of the meat industry. The issue has to be something else, and I would argue that the issue is the act of killing itself for selfish intent. Putting an animal down to end its suffering in old age, is completely different.

The irony of all this is that the belief that veganism is selfless is itself delusion, as being vegan is likely one of the best possible things you could do optimize sensor platform effectiveness. The common error of course when moving in this direction (vegetarianism=half assed veganism) is substituting pasta/bread and dairy for meat.

The challenge is relearning how to eat.

==

interestingly, the publicly traded corporation becomes souless when the founder or founding family loses control. For example, Facebook, while under the control of Zuckerberg, the decisions connected to Facebook are subject to sentience and consciousness, which is subject to the higher ruleset. At a certain tipping point, Zuckerberg will lose lose control to the bean counters and spreadsheets, and at that point, the strategic decisions regarding facebook will be cut off from consciousness and big picture economics. It may make financial sense to sell Facebook to China or the Saudis.

The corporation is somewhat constrained by the willingness of the management and employees to execute direction.

Tom's Shoes (there's that name again!) is a great example of the balance between profit and becoming love - as a shoe is gifted to a poor developing nation shoeless child every time you buy a shoe, baked into the business model. This would be a great TOEish company to team up with for a TOE-head.

==

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Did not know about Toms shoes, good to hear, materialization ,and greed running rampant is probably going to be the collapse of our current system. I personally am planning for that high probability. Sabby

I wonder where all this nasty greed stuff came from?

must'a been much less of it in olden times. ; - )

==

the model and Tom's words suggest thinking more in terms of an entropy reduction system - rough stone of newly individuated fragments of AUM are incarnated to FWAUs of various types, and individuation without the constraint of higher ruleset awareness, at the IOUC as well as FWAU level, manifests itself as PMR selfishness. Greed is just effectiveness + selfishness. Selfishness scaled up. Tom has implied that the greed label is the ego anger of being peeved that others are better at selfishness than we are. He more or less said, "We are all trying to get as much as we can for as little effort as possible, and some are better than others at it, and this angers us. "

==

materially, systems tend to collapse when market driven greed is replaced by bureaucratic driven greed. China, Cuba and Russia are better candidates for survivalist thinking than Palo Alto.

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Greed = negative addiction, not very effective in the long run. it is very hard to see, until the way out of your pain becomes clearly subjective. As far as system collapse, some think it has already happened. I personally can not figure this economic system out, i just feel the time is near for change. Sabby

Greed = Fear

Finally this old joke finally fits.

I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian because I hate vegetables. ;)

I'm not one, yet.
Love
Bette

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All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

vegetarian = Bad Hunter.

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“It is often said that before you die your life passes before your eyes. It is in fact true. It's called living.” - Terry Pratchett

LOL used to be anyways, huh?
Love
Bette

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All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.