Again, interesting. Although I loath the much hackneyed quote from Korzybski, "The map is not the territory," it demonstrates the lacking in idealised modeling. Personally, I live each and every day with open ended conclusions, else, I would not be here. I experience little angst as a result.

Our situation is one of me confronting someone whom I know has answers, but will not reveal them. And, BTW, I am sanguine with that, as I respect that right. To put it another way, that right is, with me, a given.

However, as I referenced above, were this a classroom, and in some ways it is, my questions would be more pressing, as such a scenario would, in effect, be another situation altogether.

I cannot speak for all "Js", but as for myself, I view answers as stepping stones to the next question/answer; but then I always tested INTP till c. age 40--perhaps I'm a hybrid. :-)

Posters this thread,

I was curious about the psychological test you referred to. I had never heard of it so I googled it and went to their web site. Personally I have a lot of doubts as to the potential validity of something based on the list of questions asked. For me, the majority of the questions were such that I would have preferred to have a c option for equal likelyhood dependent on situation. I had to arbitrarily answer so many that I could not put any validity on the results. I could see myself answering the questions differently at a different time as I am not honestly in agreement with either option all the time or even most of the time. In addition, based on this impression, I was unwilling to pay for the results and am not at all sure the free ones have any meaning for me.

Obviously some of you were pleased with and beilieved in the results for yourself. I just see it as a very big question mark.

They claim on the web site that they are a big deal. Are they so in fact? Such claims are common on web sites that want to sell something.

Ted Vollers

Ted,

Yes, it is a big enough deal (enough people subscribe to it) to support a fair sized industry. The point is to categorize individuals into personality types and then offer suggestions of how different types might interact more productively. Putting people in pigeon holes is always problematical and fraught with error. You, being the well balanced guy that you are, appear to be spread rather evenly over all the types -- thus, perhaps you fit into yet another type -- either "all of the above", or "none of the above".

Tom C

Tom,

Should have mentioned, it said that I was an Artisan. And I did take the MMPI(?) many years ago and it said that I would probably be happy doing any kind of work with the possible exception of sales, if there were deception or pressure involved, as I best remember. That was long ago in a galaxy far away. Forgot all about it until now.

Ted

I have read a half-dozen books on the subject of Jung's personality theory and the MBTI. The only arguments I've read in this thread about the subject indicate a complete lack of understanding of the subject, the tools, and the theory. All of these arguments are gross misconceptions. If the concepts were understood as they really are, none of these objections would even arise.

Do you guys know that the history behind these type tests here (in America) was to pick and chose who would be allowed in? Oh wait, that might have been intelligence tests, even though, though....

As much as I love Jung this MBTI concept is faulty, yep, faulty, based on faulty premise or concepts. It calls out 4 dichotomies, below, indicating, implying, that these traits are on opposite ends on a continuum, on four continuum's actually.
Dichotomies
1.Extraversion / Introversion
2.Sensing / iNtuition
3.Thinking / Feeling
4.Judging / Perceiving
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Brig ... _Indicator

From the above I think ;) it will be easy to recognize the left side is how we do it (inefficiently) in PMR, and the right side is how we do it in NPMR, basically.

We also have been discussing how just thinking about words "creates" all these feelings and emotions, they aren't different (thinking and feeling). Like that, what does anyone think about that, please?
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Ooo. Nice thread.

A couple of decades ago I worked the night shift in a mental hospital with another fellow who was a fairly intelligent inquisitive type. Much of the night our primary task was to stay awake. We'd play scrabble, talk about ideas and so on. One night he brought in a photostat of the Kiersey Temprament Sorter, which is itself derived from Myers-Briggs work.

He handed it to me and said "Just do it." So I did... becoming mildly irritated in that the thing seemed like one of those dippy 'tests' in some tabloid that purport to provide some insight into something entirely non-consequential.

I did the 40 or so questions and then graded it out, told him my type (It was INTJ back then, very strongly polarized,), and he pulled out a couple of books he had brought where I could read about my 'type'.

It was SO dead on, describing my behavior, personality traits, predilections better than I could myself, I was like: "What the hell is this...?

That led me to a several year study of Jung's work (I had eventually assembled and read most of his original writings) and it was well worth the trip.

It is a model that provides, or can provide, a lot of insight. It's not perfect, but you can see lots that you wouldn't've otherwise.

Personality types (as these are called) can evolve or change over time. And over time I found the constraints of left brain -centric was too prison-like and set up home far in the right brain. (To borrow from a different model) These days I test out as an INFP.

There are lots and lots of things to be said about the business... for instance the degree of polarity (almost entirely introverted or extroverted as opposed to moderately or barely) of the different axes has certain sets of implications. Another is that the four letters you test out as indicate the nature of the (Jungian) consciousness... the unconscious will have the qualities, much less differentiated, of the the opposite four values (in my case then, my relatively Jungian unconscious would be ESTJ , something like the personality type of a law-enforcement type).

So Bette and Ted, no, ya, this is, can be for some at least, a useful package of software for the mind . There are a lot of great ideas in the world, I know, but if you get the chance sometime, this group can offer quite a bit of return on investment.

-Montana

I thought so too Montana, that this thread was Ooo. :)

Do you also see how this thinking, this standardizing is limiting to our understanding we all are all of that, all of the above in various situations/realities?

I was in a mental hospital about three and half decades ago, small world.

We are all perfect.

I also meant to talk about how interesting it is that your "type" changed over time, as this fits in with an idea I've had for awhile that IQ is also dynamic in that way.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Yes nice thread :)

I just took two of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) tests.

I got INTP in both of them, after reading five different description of that personality type it seems to be fitting to me.

"INTP types are quiet, thoughtful, analytical individuals who tend to spend long periods of time on their own, working through problems and forming solutions. They are curious about systems and how things work. Consequently, they are frequently found in careers such as science, architecture, and law. INTPs tend to be less at ease in social situations or in the "caring professions," although they enjoy the company of those who share their interests. They also tend to be impatient with the bureaucracy, rigid hierarchies, and the politics prevalent in many professions. They prefer to work informally with others as equals.[14]

INTPs organize their understanding of any topic by articulating principles, and they are especially drawn to theoretical constructs. Having articulated these principles for themselves, they can demonstrate remarkable skill in explaining complex ideas to others in simple terms, especially in writing. On the other hand, their ability to grasp complexity may also lead them to provide overly detailed explanations of "simple" ideas, and listeners may judge that the INTP makes things more difficult than they are. To the INTP, however, this is incomprehensible: They are merely presenting all the information.[14]

Given their independent nature, INTPs may prefer working alone to leading or following in a group. During interactions with others, if INTPs are focused on gathering information, they may seem oblivious, aloof, or even rebellious—when in fact they are concentrating on listening and understanding.[citation needed] However, INTPs' extraverted intuition often gives them a quick wit, especially with language. They may defuse tension through comical observations and references. They can be charming, even in their quiet reserve, and are sometimes surprised by the high esteem in which their friends and colleagues hold them.[14]

When INTPs feel insulted, however, they may respond with sudden, cutting criticism. After such an incident, INTPs are likely to be as bewildered as the recipient. They have broken the rules of debate and exposed their raw emotions. To INTPs, this is the crux of the problem: emotions must be dealt with logically—because improperly handled emotions, INTPs believe, can only harm.[15]"

Read more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Brig ... _Indicator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTP

http://keirsey.com/handler.aspx?s=keirs ... c=overview (overview of all types)

Test can be taken here: http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp

I guess I'll have to take it again. I took it once 15 years ago, or so, and can't remember what I was. :)
Thank you for "making" this thread get found again Lynda. She gave a hint in some other thread.

Okay I took the test, I am a ENFP, how does that sound knowing me as you all do? ;)
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Well Bette, I'd say you are one of the more extroverted members of the board :-)
And intuitive over sensation seems to be an indicator of group membership here
I'd bet that when it comes down to brass tacks you'd make an important decision by feeling over reason
And you probably also favor perception over judgement, generally.

So ya, seems to fit.

It's not ironclad, never was meant to be. There is a lot of nuance that goes in to the meaning and interpretation of the results, etc.

And people can and do change over time. More typically, Once an adult tests out a certain way, they are that way for life, or at least decades. If they change much, something has profoundly changed them. It can be through evolution, so to speak, but it can also be from trauma. There was some research (so long since I read it, not a clue where to look... Menninger maybe?) that showed that people put through sufficient psychological torture would have their 'personalities' totally flip over... the introvert becoming an extrovert and vice versa, etc.

-Montana

Myers-Briggs description

"ENFPs are initiators of change, keenly perceptive of possibilities. They energize and stimulate others through their contagious enthusiasm. They prefer the start-up phase of a project or relationship, and are tireless in the pursuit of new-found interests. ENFPs are able to anticipate the needs of others and to offer them needed help and appreciation. They bring zest, joy, liveliness, and fun to all aspects of their lives. They are at their best in situations that are fluid and changing, and that allow them to express their creativity and use their charisma. They tend to idealize people, and can be disappointed when reality fails to fulfill their expectations. They are easily frustrated if a project requires a great deal of follow-up or attention to detail."

Keirsey descriptions

"Champions delight in novelty. They are optimistic, enthusiastic, and vivacious, craving expressions of strong emotion. With a dramatic flair, they share their experiences with others, hoping to reveal some universal truth or win others over in support of a cause. Attuned to possibilities, Champions scan their environment, probing the emotions, needs, and motivations of others. This sensitivity sometimes conflicts with their intense drive for personal authenticity. Spontaneous and personable, they attract others to their company."

Seems quite accurate I think :-)

I took the MBTI several months ago online in hopes of gaining insight in my job search. I tested several times in a number of weeks ... as an INTJ. After reading various sources on that type I have to agree the model is accurate for me in many ways.

As a result of being typed I came across a website intjforum.com which I began to frequent. Due to a thread on virtual reality I ultimately made email contact with the poster, Roland ( is that you Roland ?), who suggested I check out My Big TOE.

So Here I Am !!

Dang that is me, thank you SS. I miss Roland, I'm glad you found your way here RBM, funny how those things work, connections. Dang, I'm pegged....:)
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Here's a site that summarizes types, compatibilities, and population percentages

http://www.massmatch.com/MBTI-2.php