Special comment about Ted Vollers:

Hello I wanted to mention that Ted was able to detect something in this thread that may be others did not. It shows how you can identify something from turbulent waters. I want to say that I appreciate a PM he sent me showing how much he cares about me and (I can extrapolate to others). As I write I have people close to me facing their future in a courthouse. It is not hard to detect great souls like Ted, and it is a nice feeling knowing that somebody cares about you.

Thank you Ted!

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

I read the whole entire post again. Although you seem not to be emotionally affected by the situation and Bette appears to be hurt, your comments do not show a desire to help resolve this. They do not show that you feel responsible for how she feels and you do not show any remorse either... perhaps this is because you are entirely innocent.



I read it the first time around and assumed you were describing the collateral effects of past interactions with her... I was still considering your innocence.

Add to that your Kindergarten remarks and it would seem that your previous quote is not coincidental but intentional. You don't mind taunting Bette.

I don't think it is possible to tickle other peoples ego just for the sake of exercise without making yourself into a "bad word". Maybe I'm reading things wrong.

MeClam: I read the whole entire post again. Although you seem not to be emotionally affected by the situation and Bette appears to be hurt, your comments do not show a desire to help resolve this. They do not show that you feel responsible for how she feels and you do not show any remorse either... perhaps this is because you are entirely innocent.

Claudio: I am not saying I am perfect. I am an INTJ personality type that like to change things, in doing that I may be or be perceived as arrogant. This is a situation that it has been going for long time. She always would like me at her level and she gets frustrated I will never be. The kindergarten's comments were an attempt to a change following the flow of her initial comments. Hope things really change for the better.

Good feedback MeClam!

Greatly appreciated. You seem to oms very well.

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

you may be? I thought:



and then you finish with:



"may be" is out of the question.

I am arrogant myself... thank you for participating with me...

Well someday we will all look back at this and laugh and laugh and laugh thinking wtf were we thinking. We are all in the same school, mixed level if need be, there was a fight on the play ground, and now people have decided to give it up for another day. No heads were cracked open.

I'm sorry Claudio.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

MeClam:

I don't get your reasoning:

You seem to think you proved I am arrogant or I was arrogant in my post. What is your logic to get to that?

Arrogance definition: "an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions"

My qoute: "what I say here in this whole post if you really analyze it you will realize that it has nothing to do with ego"

This is an observation and has nothing to do with arrogance.

My quote: "She always would like me at her level and she gets frustrated I will never be"

This was a repeated observation. I don't do what she does, so it is easy to notice it.

Where is the arrogance that you see MeClam, because I frankly don't feel it and don't see it.

May be you are perceiving arrogance from your ego whispering. Don't confuse being sure about something with being arrogant.

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

all this talk of ego makes my fricken head spin...

8-|

_________________
Never live so certainly as to confuse your own convictions with what is true.

What's up Cole! Ego is sleeping, shhhh, don't wake him up. Come on sit down.

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

Its as if you say and do things with the idea that those are not connected to you in any way. That you can change the flow of a river not because you want to or because you need to but because you simply can as a manifestation of your skill.

That you can clearly state by your own measurement and judgement the difference in levels between you and Bette as if these are facts without realizing that by simply believing in the concept of short that you created the illusion of long.

That you can say I am not competing yet you can't resist to brag yourself at a higher level. What is the point at telling kids in kindergarten school that because you are in high school you can never be at their level...this is a dumb thing to say since it is a fact. If this is a fact and there are levels of magnitude between you and Bette what is the point of bringing this up besides as a method of putting her down? by your own words you say it will create frustration in her just to know this.

You write your preconceived intent of messing with her ego, then you mess with her ego and state the results it could cause, then you finish by being innocent.... how?

Maybe because you don't want to reach the obvious conclusion that only a highschooler with the mentality of a Kindergarten would bother in doing what you just did.

Level of our intelligence has nothing to do with what kind of human being, person we are. It can show that one has a better ability to comprehend all kind of data. Our human abilities, i.e. compassion, empathy, sympathy, understanding pain and suffering of others, and not only those, who close to our heart, make us a real human being, and decrease our entropy. It is much easy to learn technical stuff, but to shake off our ignorance to see, to accept, that our intelligence level is not most important part of who we are is a real challenge, and this is why we are here.

And, yes, Bette, I am totally on your side.

Lena

_________________
'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.

Lena, if you are always nice to your kids, your kids may keep doing wrong things. If your original approach of being nice to kids didn't change (they kept doing wrong things), parents try a tougher approach. It's all about changing things that somebody perceives as bad and have room for improvements. You may always side with Bette, because you identify your personality closer to hers. If you analyze all mine posts and Bette posts you may notice that she was more aggressive to me than I was to her, and I don't say something I don't mean to later say I am sorry. I notice the differences, that does not mean I am superior but I am clearly different.




Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

MeClam: You are full of beliefs here. If I am aware of how I compare to others that does not mean I brag about it. It is natural on me. It is you that thinks that I brag. I am honest and at some point if I say "I don't care" I really mean it. I may care later though. If at some point I feel I don't care about Bette it is because I choose to help others or put my energy in things I can change in a positive way. If whatever I tried to be positive with her fails because he cannot stand the way I am I am better of not thinking too much about her and put my mind on other things and other people. Like I am doing now with you. It is not Bette and me any more, now is whoever is involved. Everybody is different, I don't know if you get that.



This proves to me you are not capable of doing good omsing. You haven't read the reasons I wrote or you ignored them. You jumped to conclusions that have no basement. If I detect that you are not capable of doing good analysis, that does not mean I brag about me being better than you. I really don't care if I am better than you in omsing. I am at my level, and you are at your level. You are good for A,B,C and I may be good for D,E,F. We can all live in peace being different.

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

Claudio,

May I be permitted to say something that is, I think, significant and relevant. If it offends you, my apologies, and I will remove it at your request. It is something that you might perhaps consider and enter into your calculations.

It is my understanding that it is a characteristic of those few designated as type INTJ that they arrive at their conclusions by an analysis of what (all) they perceive to be significant in a given circumstance/situation. For clarity of analysis, they do not include in their analysis things that they do not perceive to be significant. Otherwise an analysis could never be completed. Because of how they perceive the completeness of their analysis as essentially total, they are absolute in their convictions. They are adamant in their conviction that 'it is this way and no other'. Because they are so thorough in their analysis and the feel it so compellingly, they feel that there can be no other conclusion and way to see the situation.

The vast majority of others do not operate on this degree of certainty in their feelings about the absolute rightness of their conclusions. They do not analyze things to this degree. They take into account many of the factors that you consider to be irrelevant in a given analysis. Right or wrong, 'fuzzy' or not, this is the way that it is. The INTJ 'type' is considered to be extreme 'left brain' oriented, to the exclusion of factors that are considered to be 'right brain' characteristics.

The result is that to the majority of others, the extreme INTJ personality type appears to be aggressively rigid in their statements and attitudes. What is simple, logical, realistic and unbiased analysis to them as INTJs appears to be rigid, critical and arrogant attacks to most others.

If you were to take note of some of the factors that you consider to be irrelevant to your analysis but is included in the understanding of others, you might come to note how your comments can be considered as attacks. I am not getting into any question of 'who cast the first stone' or whether Bette is 'perfect and egoless'. My responsibilities here preclude that and I do not claim that I never err either. But it has finally come to me that the time is ripe and perhaps this, the above, is the right thing to say to you that might possibly get through to you and become part of the factors you include in your analysis of the reality of interacting with others as equals as IUOCs, experiencing the PMR VR package.

You are intelligent and have the INTJ analytical skills. Tom recognizes your potential as indicated by the fact that, short as his time is and as few the posts he can make, he has taken time to give you additional information recently, clarifying some of his posts for you. I do not however think that you are adequately expanding your analysis and applying it to your self and this situation as you should. There are patterns in your stress level from the Special High Intensity Training that occurs in your PMR life that appear to reflect here in your communications on the board. Please apply your INTJ analytical skills and see if you cannot discover, by including additional factors, some of this bigger picture aspect of this situation and result in more peace on the board.

Ted

All I did was explain my logic.

It appears to me as if you had pushed a book of a table and because you saw it fall you believed to have the power of gravity.

Going around dissing, taunting and belittling people is something anyone can do. Bette did let your comments get to her and because of that it made her fall. She has to realize that all you did was push, but it was her who allowed the fall.

If I ask a question to Ted and Tom and they reply does that mean I have the power to control them? am I at a higher level that them?... no, they simply see my action directed at them and they decide to acknowledge it or not. The same between you and Bette, the difference is that your action was not a question but an aggression and Bette took the bite... at the end she has the power not you, just like Ted and Tom.

Very interesting post Ted. My opinion is:
1)Telling someone who is showing signs of being hurt that they have the level of a Kindergarten is an attack because it will be taken that way.
2)Asking that person "don't you have any better useful things to do in your current PMR life?, Why do you waste your time so much?" is an attack because it will be taken that way.

If I have 2 million dollars and I mention this, it doesn't matter that it is a fact, what will determine that I am being humble, bragging or stating a fact is where and why I say it. In front of a poor person is one thing, in front of Bill gates is another, to a bank teller a different one.

Saying what you said to someone who is displaying being hurt is like adding insult to injury, it is irrelevant how factual or accurate you think you are. The effects of your comments were not unknown to you since your intention was to create frustration which means you are aware of where and why you say things. Not taking responsibility appears to me as disingenuous.

I would like to point out something positive from all of this. I think Bette's quick capacity to pick herself up, to clean herself up, smile and be able to enjoy the sunshine again is notable to me... it is not the first time I see her do this. From listening to the things she has gone through in her life I am not surprised she has developed this so well. I will meet with my boss for the first time this Saturday after the argument I had with him. I would like to do what Bette did, to walk in that room smiling, to laugh it off... to forgive. I don't think I can be so gracious about it as she is.