Claudio you know you put Jesus before Ted said something and you changed it. DENIAL (means you might not even know that you are lying). You also know that many people realize the myth of organized religion and the manipulative way it controls people with fear of death, and making them believe what they are told to believe rather than leaning on their own understanding, and knowing their experience. Unless you believe in all that (that Jesus died for your sins leaving you sinless, the earth is 10,000 years-old, and dinosaurs are just big lizard, oh yes, the rib thing), then there that is, I can't really say anything to that because it would then be your belief system. Just realize when you say JC stands for Juan Carlos that you are lying in context, and that you know meant Jesus because that is what you originally put, and so does everyone who saw the post before you edited it. Do you really think people can't see your errors in logic, and your "spin" BS?

Bottom line though, beside you lying Claudio, is that Ted was talking about the inanity of you comparing some sacrifice you believe that you have made to some sacrifice that you believe this Jesus made (you think he is going cover "your sins" whatever that is, that he died as a sacrifice for your sins, right?), and I am nipping your feeble attempt at misinformation in the bud, bud.

The thing is that this all is obvious to most people with any sense in their head, so whine away the endless times if you want Claudio. You need to know this is thus.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Claudio: You are correct the structure is identical, but this is the problem. Not everyone is as good as you at making analysis like this. There is the possibility that other people will not see that your comment is about sacrifice and instead think its about you believing you are like Juan Carlos.

Bette: Ted knows perfectly what Claudio wrote since he was the one that requested a change on it in the first place. It is impossible to lie to someone that already knows the truth. Claudio simply did what was requested of him and made up Juan Carlos. You, me, Claudio and Ted (maybe more) are on the same page... we know who Juan Carlos is... there is no lie. You like to believe there is a lie because that way it allows you to express the angry feelings you have accumulated over time dealing with Claudio. You are letting your buttons being pressed by making incorrect assumptions. I would suggest to follow Ted's suggestions and remove the comments and opinions you posted on religion to try to avoid a potential misunderstanding.

Let me give him a hint:
Have you considered into your analysis how your strength is to analyse? Have you considered that other people can't do it nearly as good as you can? This last question is challenging since it would require for you to put into your calculations something you cannot experience for yourself.
Incorrect!, that is not why I don't ask such things. I have worked on computers all of my life, I know the hardware and software. I have experience programing in java, action script, mel (3D), and visual basic dealing with setting and managing databases and I still have a hard time following your conversations with Tom. I simply can't reach the level of understanding you so easily can. I've even taken calculus classes at some point. Even though I get an idea of what you guys are discussing I find myself short of understanding it clearly. It is simply hard for me and it has nothing to do with not being curious enough or me thinking I already know what I need to know.I find this to be the case over and over. I now understand that you are not Arrogant or act based on ego. You simply state things to others as if you were telling them to yourself. Therefore you are brutally honest and ruthless, on top of that you don't explain yourself clearly enough for the rest of the world to understand you properly.

You put us against the same standard as you hold yourself when it comes to analysis yet you forget we can't do it as well you do. can you try to remember this?

I think you have a hard time understanding the "potential" part of the sentence because it is unimaginable to you how someone could misunderstand what to you is so obvious. (wait, I just misunderstood potential... I initially thought it meant "future"... you see... poor analysis... I rest my case)

You do try to help, I know this because you completely changed the way I see things now. Your brutal methods did work on me. But at some point you need to realize that to others you have managed to be incorrectly perceived and misunderstood to the point that they think every word comes out of your mouth has wrong intentions. When trying to help someone it is not enough to be correct, you need to help them see why.

I try not to ask Tom too many questions because he is very busy these days and I do not want to add to his stress level in any way.

In fact, if there were anything I could do to lower it, I would.

In fact, that's also probably why I am so adamantly against Claudio's plan to try to piss Tom off when he meets him. I still don't get whose entropy this exercise would be lowering, Claudio tried telling me everyone who's present at the time, somehow I tend to doubt that.

As good as Tom has been to all of us, why would anyone make that their sole goal, to try to irk such a wonderful human being?

MeClam
You know, I know, Ted knows, and Claudio knows, well maybe Claudio doesn't know, and you seem to think he can do something besides causing trouble, and being divisive, that Claudio is using half-truths and misinformation which will go into record and become "common knowledge" if it is not nipped in the bud NOW. There is a lie, a big one, and it will not be allowed to flourish and gain hold because he is lying about this. He may say, oh I will pretend to not have said I have made some great sacrifice, as great as the greatest sacrifice made by those that belief in Jesus as a savior. Many people still have that belief, so I am nipping this lie in the bud now. Too much misinformation going around already, MY mission is to NIP IT IN THE BUD when I see it. Unfortunately with Claudio there's so much I have to pick my missions well and not nit pick, but I will defend truth in all cases.

Now, having said that, I also do think to myself that perhaps Claudio is really here to be divisive and rude while hiding behind his cultural and INTJ cover, kind of like my son can be rude because he has autism and can't think like everyone else. I still protect others from his rude actions, and him from theirs in reaction to a perceived slight. I could be protecting the wrong side, who knows. I have had the thought that what if Claudio really is making people think badly of him on purpose so that he can trip and trigger all of their buttons. What if he really is taking one for the team, but then I think I don't want to be on a team that uses that method, been there and done that, prefer the no pain these days. We can learn and still avoid those that are out to cause pain and stress as their preferred method, that's my preferred method these days, showing that for what it is when I see it (and I'm not the only one seeing it). It is possible to grow and still avoid irritants, unless you have a desire to keep information from becoming infected with half-truths, misinformation, and outright lies. Then avoiding or ignoring is no longer possible.

That's me though, your mileage may vary. I stand by my post.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

So Lynda, write a paper in your theory that my sole goal is to piss off Tom. Most probably I would never meet him in PMR, but if I do I picture it as giving him a hug and tune my vibrations to his and enjoy that feeling. I think I would perceive his vibrations as soon as I see him from the distance. I don't think between us in that encounter there would be any need to say anything, we would know what all that means. I already perceived that without being close to him in PMR. I can meet him in NPMR and it would certainly not cross my mind to piss him off in NPMR. When I read your comments, I really feel sorry about you. You seem to be devolving.

For the rest, give me some time. I am pretty busy these days. Lynda, Tom is not the only busy guy here. You may do what you do towards him, towards me too.

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

Hi MeClam:

I wish you the best with your boss. I like how you try to be objective and do analysis. Keep it up, I see you have potential to do great stuff. I wish you the best in your jobs and businesses.



MeClam: Incorrect!, that is not why I don't ask such things. I have worked on computers all of my life, I know the hardware and software. I have experience programing in java, action script, mel (3D), and visual basic dealing with setting and managing databases and I still have a hard time following your conversations with Tom. I simply can't reach the level of understanding you so easily can. I've even taken calculus classes at some point. Even though I get an idea of what you guys are discussing I find myself short of understanding it clearly. It is simply hard for me and it has nothing to do with not being curious enough or me thinking I already know what I need to know.

Claudio: Well you said incorrect, but if you pay attention I said "others", not "all others". I did not include a whole set of possibilities, and take also into account I am posting, not writing technical papers. Besides this, I would like to help you understand as much as I find time to do it. Please ask me questions, you can also ask questions in that thread. Remove your fears if you have. I don't think your questions won't have value. If your questions can make you and other people have a better understanding of realities and beings it would be of great benefit.



MeClam: Can you try to remember this?

Claudio: I think I do, may be you can expand. I don't know exactly what you mean.


Ted: We avoid offense to religious believers here, even potential.

MeClam: I think you have a hard time understanding the "potential" part of the sentence because it is unimaginable to you how someone could misunderstand what to you is so obvious. (wait, I just misunderstood potential... I initially thought it meant "future"... you see... poor analysis... I rest my case)

Claudio: Yes, but I also noticed Zen and buddhism are not stopped as the mentioning of J. It seems one sided to me. I will take your feedback into account. It is hard for me though most of the times to downgrade my analysis. I see a positive here that I have room for improvement in trying to guess possible illogical conclusions from some people, but it is not an easy task for me. Sorry if I sound bragging about it, but I experienced it a lot. It is not new for me. I see Tom is better at doing this than me. Hopefully I can improve. Take into account also that when I write things, since I am the one writing I know what I feel at the time of writing them. I know my intentions. When somebody later on tells me I had bad intentions which I never felt. I would first react like "what are you talking about?". Actually if you change JC, to Paul or Steven, what is the big difference? Isn't the problem all the beliefs behind the name used. That is not my problem. I hope other people can fix their own belief problems.

Ted: You can have the best intention or Intent in all the world from your internal point of view, but if it is perceived as it has been being perceived here, you would do better to not express it as far as doing anything to help or to improve others as they will interpret your actions and statements as described in the composite statement at the beginning of this post.

MeClam: You do try to help, I know this because you completely changed the way I see things now. Your brutal methods did work on me. But at some point you need to realize that to others you have managed to be incorrectly perceived and misunderstood to the point that they think every word comes out of your mouth has wrong intentions. When trying to help someone it is not enough to be correct, you need to help them see why.

Claudio: This was all good feedback for me. I tried and try what you just said, but take into account that a lot of people attack at the same time and I am busy and choose my battles and who and when I help. I perceive my time in trying to exchange thoughts with you is worth it. I admire your objectivity and how you handle your ego. Keep it up and I hope we keep it positive and keep learning and help each other in understanding things.

Take care,

Looking forward to hear from you and keep this activities as time allows.

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

The following are IMO wrong judgements or plain attacks by Bette and Lynda. I leave to the readers to think the possible causes for those.

I don't understand Claudio, it okay because he doesn't understand me either. "Bette"

You are the most egotistical b words I have never met. "Bette"

You are an egotistical maniac, I don't know what possible good you can have in this whole MBT thing because you have been NOTHING BUT A NEGATIVE INPUT since you got here. There was hardly any discord before you, and nothing but since you. You are the common denominator, the want-to-be dominater, but your ego just smack you around. I will not let it smack me around anymore. I will work on my ego, you stick to yours, it's big enough for an entire country. "Bette"

Claudio is over the line egotistical. "Bette"

I'll leave MBT rather than take any more shit from Claudio sitting down. I will stand and wipe it off until he suffocates me in it if I can't stay ahead of the flow. "Bette"

I don't think that Claudio has the same understanding of himself, he has a strong understanding of that about me, but not of himself. "Bette"

My comment: This is interesting, at the top Bette said I don't understand her ("he doesn't understand me either") and now she says "he has a strong understanding of that about me". Interesting.

It is fear Claudio, and no matter how much machismo you pretend to have you also have fear. This is the one place that you can allow this fear to come out into the light Claudio. I promise I will say nothing petty if you let what ever it is that you are so scared of come out into the light. "Bette"

all he can do is try to be macho "Bette"

Well someday we will all look back at this and laugh and laugh and laugh thinking wtf were we thinking. We are all in the same school, mixed level if need be, there was a fight on the play ground, and now people have decided to give it up for another day. No heads were cracked open. "Bette"

I'm sorry Claudio. "Bette"



You know, I know, Ted knows, and Claudio knows, well maybe Claudio doesn't know, and you seem to think he can do something besides causing trouble, and being divisive, that Claudio is using half-truths and misinformation which will go into record and become "common knowledge" if it is not nipped in the bud NOW. There is a lie, a big one, and it will not be allowed to flourish and gain hold because he is lying about this. He may say, oh I will pretend to not have said I have made some great sacrifice, as great as the greatest sacrifice made by those that belief in Jesus as a savior. Many people still have that belief, so I am nipping this lie in the bud now. Too much misinformation going around already, MY mission is to NIP IT IN THE BUD when I see it. Unfortunately with Claudio there's so much I have to pick my missions well and not nit pick, but I will defend truth in all cases. "Bette"

Now, having said that, I also do think to myself that perhaps Claudio is really here to be divisive and rude while hiding behind his cultural and INTJ cover, kind of like my son can be rude because he has autism and can't think like everyone else. I still protect others from his rude actions, and him from theirs in reaction to a perceived slight. I could be protecting the wrong side, who knows. I have had the thought that what if Claudio really is making people think badly of him on purpose so that he can trip and trigger all of their buttons. What if he really is taking one for the team, but then I think I don't want to be on a team that uses that method, been there and done that, prefer the no pain these days. We can learn and still avoid those that are out to cause pain and stress as their preferred method, that's my preferred method these days, showing that for what it is when I see it (and I'm not the only one seeing it). It is possible to grow and still avoid irritants, unless you have a desire to keep information from becoming infected with half-truths, misinformation, and outright lies. Then avoiding or ignoring is no longer possible. "Bette"

That's me though, your mileage may vary. I stand by my post. "Bette"

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

Claudio as you should know this is a special thread started in order that we could say when needed to be said in this special thread, so that is what I have done here. I have removed the social lubrication of holding my tongue, but I have learned to only go with righting misinformation (trying to prevent it from misunderstanding later), or protecting other from your lack of social lubrication elsewhere in the future. All the things that you think are rude that I said are all the things I removed the social lubrication from to tell you as it was, it reflected my frustration at your always rude way. This is your thread too, are you using it to its best use either? See I'm not proud of blowing up at you and saying things that probably would hurt an normal persons feelings, but at least you were not hurt so I really don't feel bad about me, only for you sometimes. You see I think I may have figured out how you may have some use here, at least for me, and that is in showing myself that I have free will to ignore your harmful stream of data, because Tom has said that is how we are able to not have all the negativity in the world hit us, we hit ignore so that the negative stream is not allowed access. I can use your customized Claudio data stream to practice the "ignore" mode. Other than for lies and misinformation, can't ignore that. For others stuff though Clau, access denied.
Have a great life.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

To AeroLynda123:
Honestly, do not worry about Tom... he can, he has, he will handle way worst/harsh/difficult things. I also honestly think that Claudio is not on that quest against Tom. He was only pondering this as an hypothetical question. Could I piss him off? is this even possible?. This is just part of his casual/normal/daily analysis (super/exaggerated/insane/extreme to us) but non the less part of the questioning he has to do in order for his analysis to be complete. He is openly being/doing OMS, thats all. There is no bad intention behind it. The only negative aspect is that they are not explained or with enough context to make sense(to us).
The answer lays inside your question. Can you see the extreme/super/duper/extra/plus/max exaggeration in your sentence?... don't you think stating that someones "sole goal" or "pure reason to exist" is just a little bit/way too much out of proportion?. This extreme approach only speaks about how you perceived Claudio's comments and nothing about him or his intentions. He did not say this, you only felt this way. (this feeling is not just limited to you. It is precisely why I put so much effort to try to make Claudio understand that not everyone is perceiving things the way he thinks)

To Bette:
Do you know how I first met you?... well, let me tell you. I came to this forum because I had started reading MBT. Then I had an event happen to me that left me very confused. It was bad enough to the point where I felt the need to ask someone for advise (not my usual approach). I posted my concerns and I was lucky enough that my first two replies were from Tom and then Ted (within 1 hr or so). Anyhow, in my response to them I tried to elaborate on my past (bad) experiences to help them understand better where I was coming from. It was then how you (Bette) came into my existence. You suddenly popped up in a comment stating how I had done (with my explanations) pissed the Hello Kitty out of you... your exact reference. Ted immediately stepped in and clarified how this was a misunderstanding on your behalf. That my comments about how the girl I cared for (10 years ago, my first crush) were simply expressing my feelings (disappointed) at witnessing the process/outcome/result of seeing a young girl without and education become a single mother, and not an opinion about single mothers or lack of education . Anyhow... my point is this. I did not know you existed at all, there is no way I was trying to make a reference at you, passively or actively in any way. Yet you still allowed/managed to somehow find a personal attachment to my words. Again... the power/flaw/offense/rattle is on the receiver and not the sender. I think Claudio is misunderstood, the level/degree is still to be determined (OMS goes both ways) as it should be. That he had good intentions on every interaction we witnessed on this thread is not an issue to me (I believe he means well)... it is in his methods and his degree of understanding where I have open doubts.

To Claudio:
This is just a quick reply to you. It was nice to see your summary of attacks/aggression towards you. It allowed me to see the structure of the dilemma we might be suffering from. You need to allow me for a moment to jump into an assumption mode and state things as if it was a conclusion. Don't worry, I still maintain an OMS and whatever I say can always be reverted if it pans out to not be the case. It is easier for me to word thing as facts/conclusions as oppose to word my sentences in a way they imply possibility of change. Anyways here is the deal...

Your strength is to be good at analysis but your Achilles heel is emotion/feelings. The whole misunderstanding begins by you expressing/responding your opinions/truths to the rest of the world, stating them the same way they are perceived by you: logical clear/obvious/rational/straight-forward. You send your message believing it carries a simple "truth/positive" label based on the content unaware that because of your lack of emotional sensitivity it actually carries an (offensive/negative) label to most of us since we can't easily read analyse logical clear/obvious/rational/straight-forward messages. Then, we get your message, ohh boy... because of our limitations of analysis and our higher emotional sensitivity it doesn't read "truth/positive" as you intended. Therefore it creates a large emotional turmoil, huge emotional discomfort is felt that allows us not to consider OMS since it looks like a bomb, smells like a bomb and quacks like a bomb. We respond/react quickly because that is what you do in front of a bomb... common sense. We go into defense mode and there you go... we reply... you end up with a beautiful summary/list of well crafted turds that have been polished enough to allow you see that ugly face of yours we assume you have.

You get the reply and you read our ill intended message along your now crappy reflection. You do not understand how a "truth/positive" labeled message based on the contents of logical/clear/obvious/rational/straight-forward could have been misunderstood. You lack of the emotional sensitivity that would allow you to see or consider the possibility of explosive emotions erupting on other people caused by their lack of analysis of the message allowing them to assume and misconceive the label as (offensive/negative) . You assume that because you are 10000000% confident that your intentions are positive the misunderstanding has to be on the other party. Because of the unjustified high level of aggression you have suffered you do not feel that there should be any remorse/guilt/responsibility whatsoever on your behalf. In fact you can even see your tolerance of this behavior as a sacrifice. And there you go... Claudio=Juan Carlos and Bette thinks you are crazy.... it makes sense, you are both right.

Hi MeClam,
I recall the incident, and my reaction (not response) was to give a voice to all the single mothers that people are disappointed in because those disappointed people have never been a single mother, I have. I perceive the injustice in the attitudes expressed in the words that others say, probably without even thinking about what they are actually saying, because I have witnessed quite a few of them, I represent that. At least when something pisses me off now I know it is just a button or belief system, and I suppose I could just feel the feeling, and not go on to try and open the mind up that said something harmful to the population something was said about by the person. What would that change though, how can harmful mind-sets about specific population be changed without someone stepping up and say, hey, do you realize what that sounds like, what you are putting out there for others to think is a good way to think when it is harmful to that specific population.

Let's see how many things I will related to strongly if someone says something showing a mind-set I know hurts these groups; abused child, picked on child (there are many people who if they heard my name might feel real guilty about how badly I was picked on from 3-8 grade, and that makes me feel sad for them), not cared for child, incest, drug addict, free spirit (slut), single-parent, woman, welfare mother, disabled, debtor, and really just any other group/population that I see a belief system or bias towards. I represent them as if they could see the invisible "wrong way of thinking" being done about them, I give them a voice because I am them, that's all.

Now I know it is a button too, when I get a strong "oh no you didn't" reaction (as I did when you expressed a certain attitude towards single-mothers), so will be less reactive and more responsive if I make a reply. It is what is put forth AND what is received, it has to go both ways, both ways have responsibility.

Thank you for your time and thoughtfulness MeClam.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

funny, i just said this in a PM to someone yesterday!

Yes, thank you, I can. I am a devotee, a fan, which as you may know is a shortening of the word fanatic. I am a groupie, a loyal follower, and I care for the man just a teensy bit too much. I would say it bordered on worship until this past Wednesday, when I received admonishment from a very high source that I should not love Tom more than God, and believe me I took that advice to heart. God first. Tom second. :) Thank you for the reminder :)

MeClam:

You were "the" person that was able to "manage" this thread. I think that you are capable to achieve great things in your life. I hope this thread was helpful to realize your potential. Your control was amazing to me and your objectivity unquestionable.

MeClam: "He is openly being/doing OMS, thats all. There is no bad intention behind it. The only negative aspect is that they are not explained or with enough context to make sense(to us)."

Claudio: Good observation. Somebody can take the shortcut to jump into conclusions (which may sync with ego) or to ask for further information, to be curious. Your curiosity and attitude allowed you to get closer to the truth. I hope you are not the only one that learned from that (I am included).

MeClam: your Achilles heel is emotion/feelings

Claudio: I think you could have said: "Your Achilles is what you may cause to other people's emotion/feelings".

MeClam: The whole misunderstanding begins by you expressing/responding your opinions/truths to the rest of the world, stating them the same way they are perceived by you: logical clear/obvious/rational/straight-forward.

Claudio: Correct. Good observation.

MeClam: You send your message believing it carries a simple "truth/positive" label based on the content unaware that because of your lack of emotional sensitivity it actually carries an (offensive/negative) label to most of us since we can't easily read analyse logical clear/obvious/rational/straight-forward messages.

Claudio: You carry a belief that I lack emotional sensitivity, which is not true. The negativity and the offense is created by the being experiencing it, Tom explains this. I am hard do be understood because I do not only agree with some MBT concepts but also live and act agreeing to them.

MeClam: Because of the unjustified high level of aggression you have suffered you do not feel that there should be any remorse/guilt/responsibility whatsoever on your behalf.

Claudio: You put all these things together. I separate them. I did not suffer from the aggression. I noticed it though. Feeling guilty about something only adds entropy to you, same with remorse. If you do a short analysis you may conclude I am not sensitive or don't follow feelings, but letting positive feelings flow and ignoring negative ones is not exactly that. I try not to feel guilty. That does not mean I should act irresponsible. I care about your feedbacks. I am hard to be understood by a typical PMR person. I also think we are channels of CS so I let myself follow the flow, may be CS wanted me to do what I do to help others learn from the experience. You see, I live and act agreeing to certain MBT concepts.

MeClam: In fact you can even see your tolerance of this behavior as a sacrifice.

Claudio: I said "sacrifice" in response to your post "you are so horrible". The behind the scenes about that "sacrifice" is not all the creative done by Bette and others, it is my thinking that we channel CS, and also that I care more about the learning of everybody than how I am perceived by others or what feelings they might originate. I channel the lessons. The "dealing" with them is done by all you guys experiencing it. I learn too.

MeClam: it makes sense, you are both right.

Claudio: That is a conciliatory phrase. My omsing takes it just like that. That phrase might also act as an ego pleaser. Somebody can read it, think it is all right, forget about everything. Things are the way they are. Conciliatory phrases won't change the fact that we are all different. We are good for some things, bad for others. We may do good analysis but not take into accout certain post processing effects, etc., etc. To be better understood I will add that I focus on certain things which I consider important and might neglect other aspects in the way. I might not neglect some aspects in a future situation. I am using my free will, I am trying to evolve. I don't live my life thinking all the time about all consequences. I take into account what Tom mentioned that if we act with good intent and no fear, things at the end will come up right. I live by trying to help others and myself. I focus on what I can make possible contributions (e.g. I can better help you and Will, than Bette and Lynda, because of how things are at this stage).

Let me know about your meeting. The best for you.

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

To Bette:
This is the same problem I was contemplating regarding when I told my boss not to yell at the dishwashers. How to act when you witness something said/done that is unjust or unfair? I was confused as to whether what I had done had a good or bad approach. Now it is clear to me. What I did apparently had good intentions but unfortunately it was a reaction driven by ego. My perception of my boss being a Bully built up over a year and it overflowed in that incident.

What does this mean? that what I did was simply to shut him up, to put him in his place, to boss him around for once and not so much in defense of the dishwashers, they were simply the excuse I needed.

As an answer to your question I know now that the only way to intervene properly is without ego. It is the only way you can truly help the cause you claim to be protecting/defending. As long as there is an ego present no matter what we do, no matter what we claim/believe we are fighting for, it will boil down to a selfish act on our behalf.

How do I know that what I did was acting on ego? I was angry, it pissed me off, it pushed my buttons. I should have spoken with the chef and a manager after the incident letting them know my point of view in a calm and rational way. What I did was to use the dishwasher as an excuse, I then believed in a self made lie of justice that allowed me to act impulsively. It allowed me to become the bully.

The fact that I didn't get into too much trouble, or that a lot of people in the work place agree that he is a bully, does not change the fact that what I did was not correct. I think that an ego driven approach only generates drama and very little of the positive results needed. The fact that positive things may arise from this incident speaks only of how PMR works and not of my actions. What I did was like witnessing a car run a red light and me purposefully ramming into him just to teach him a lesson about accidents... lol.

As horrible as this might sound I know now that I frankly don't care as much for the dishwasher as I though I did... it was all about me.

To Claudio:
Thank you for your feedback. First of all I want to point out that the theory I postulated trying to explain the dilemma occurring in this thread is a successful one not because it is entirely 100% correct but because it reached a level where it made enough sense at explaining peoples actions/intentions/comments from both sides (it made sense from our point of view). I know that the parts of my theory that are the weakest or even wrong are the ones trying to explain what you do/did and why. Even though my theory was addressed to you, it was in reality meant primarily for everyone else. I think theres still a lot I need to know and grow to be able to come up with a theory explaining your side accurately.

The theory I postulated had the purpose to allow people reconsider and apply an OMS in their own terms. This was only possible because of a truth another member "quamta " said on another post: The most important part of this thread to me was the process I had to go through dealing with your apparent ruthless comments. It was the process from where I went from thinking he is wrong, to he is right. I had come to this thread with the purpose of understanding why arguments happen between people. I had such determination (due to the argument with my boss) that the path to achieve this was very clear to me.

In that journey I encountered you exercising what appeared to be the hobby of slapping people around just because you can (a false belief and now in introspect an observation about me). In my determination to understand you (the wronger) I was forced to minimize/swallow/eliminate/ignore my own ego in order to consider any truth in your comments. I knew that in order to be objective I had to give you the benefit of the doubt. I knew it was a lot easier for me to think that you are wrong/delusional/arrogant than it was for me to realize I was wrong. I worked hard at trying to see the truth even if that meant to see negative things about me. Then things flipped 180 degrees and I understood that you were correct. Then I logically concentrated in the examination of why were you being perceived so incorrectly by so many. A big part as you know is ego on our behalf, but I could also see that there was more, there had to be some misunderstanding on your behalf in order for this thread to have the non stop disagreements I was witnessing. I'm glad to see that I don't have to figure out if it is your emotions/feelings your Achilles heel or what ... whatever it is, you are already on it and it is not necessary for me to understand it.

I now feel I need to sit back for a bit, re-read the thread and process what this all means. I wan't to repeat the positives and eliminate the negatives in my future experiences so I want to be sure I understand. I feel a little deflated, without energy, maybe it is a good time to clean the dust off, pick up an re-read MBT to try to put things in perspective.

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Thank you all for your patience and collaborating in this thread with honest feedback.
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Hi MeClam:

You were great in this thread, and I think you can be great in lots of other situations. You forgot to mention something important : "What happened with your boss on Saturday?" Please update us! We care.

I agree with what you said in your last post. It was very good.

I just want to add another perspective on something:



It was good your analysis on this that you may have carried your ego there, but also take into account that we are channeling CS, channeling CS (Consciousness System) means CS will attract us to actions that in long term (and sometimes short term) will benefit the evolution of CS and beings involved. Think also that when you acted you removed your fear to tell your boss that. You also spoke up for something you judged unfair (I know sometimes ego wrongs us in judging) and mainly you channeled CS to make your boss to be aware that he was yelling. Some bosses think yelling is a right way to address people, but then those people will yell at others and so on, same with parents towards their children. He could have talked to the dishwashers in private. By doing it in public he controls by fear. Isn't it better to control by love? Observe and you may notice how much we all channel CS. Take into account though that you can channel love and fear same way. You have free will to choose the right channels.

Take care and hope the best that you keep progressing in all aspects.

Claudio

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"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

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