Hi all!

I came across these marvelous talks by Sir Ken Robinson. Having suffered a great deal by the current system of education and hoping that there will be a change about it in the future I found them extremely interesting and motivating. I guess, I am not the only one here to whom this applies...:

Ted Talk 1: Do schools kill creativity?

Ted Talk 2: Bring on the learning revolution!

Changing Paradigms

Educating the heart and mind

Enjoy!

Edit: Woops, wrong "Wud I Say?"-Forum. Ted, could you please move it to the non-beginner section. Thanks! ;)

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"Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world."

- Dao de jing, 1.

sorry, I do not have time to watch the video, but I can offer my observations on education which might be helpful:

- like any public institution, education over time evolves to serve the educators, not the students...decisions are made to maximize the comfort of the teachers...and to some extent, where there is great ego, a certain sadism can creep in where the teacher and institution leaders actually get some power pleasure from abusing the students as an end in itself to obtain positive feedback on the R-complex/reptilian level.

This is tolerated by most FWAUs who are fearful sheep. Some FWAUs, especially highly intelligent ones with an elevated sense of justice, who are also not constrained by fear, do not tolerate it and drop out before entering the more rewarding experience of higher education, which has the challenges of lower schools, but much less so.

- one actually profitable aspect of this is that it is excellent preparation for working in public institutions or conventional businesses. You are being trained to be obedient and tolerate ignorance, bullying and so on. (This aspect might be somewhat diminished for the modern American conceived company where you work)

- As you may remember, I have a close relative who emigrated from Canada to Germany, and my father's mother tongue was German (though born in Canada), so I have lots of second hand data to draw on to make comparisons. Germany is famously imbalanced toward the left hemisphere, and you are a right hemisphere guy (or multipolar), a total mismatch. There is the joke, somewhat at the expense of the Italians (who I adore)...in Germany, everything is forbidden, except that which is permitted, in France, everything is permitted, except that which is forbidden, and in Italy, everything is permitted, especially that which is forbidden ; - )...the point being, German culture at its root, albeit famously productive materially, is a very stressful culture to be (my personal lifetime low point was breaking down in a German language class), and this will be reflected and magnified in its institutions, especially in its lower educational institutions where the student has no power. Your experience of education would be very different in the American southwest for example, or at an Italian University, where the culture is more balanced. Another way to look at this is that you can be the 3 dimensional guy in flatland, or the person with one eye in blindville, and exploit this advantage.

- Note that Tom presumably got so fed up with his local schools that he home schooled his kids for a period, which worked out well for them at university level.

- drawing on my own experience as a Government policy guy, I can tell you that education, like any other field, is not constrained by a lack of ideas...the limiting factor is rather vested interests and the alignment of these vested interests with the levers of power. As with any policy area, the tug of war is between public sector vested interests and private sector vested interests, and the so called client or student is a secondary or third consideration....or more likely, the nominal goal of the institution, or education itself, is an accidental indifferent outcome to the process.

This applies to any activity established under the political/administrative side of society, when the client is not directly purchasing the good or service. (This is why Friedman concluded the only solution was libertarianism and minimization of public institutions, and cutting direct cheques for legit social welfare recipients, minimizing parasitic bureaucracies.)

- there are a couple of profitable ways to go with this set of challenges. For myself, I was able to find a path that minimized my effort/pain and maximized my gains, and did the education plus career thing, and there is an art and skill to this (the secret is "boss shopping"). It is what it is, and part of it is overcoming our anger that reality is not conforming to our expectations and demands.

For my brother in law, who could not tolerate formal education, he bounced around with self employment for a period until he found this niche (property inspection), and then he obtained his credentials in mid-life, and now teaches this material in community college and sits on the State/Provincial regulatory Board.

For example, in your company, there will be credential opportunities which you will sign up for and excel at. In my area, we have many immigrants running around getting rich, because no one taught them that they could not do that. The point being, education is not the be all and end all, you can go back later in life, you can find paths to prosperity without this...or you can just be happy with a smaller financial footprint.

- someday there will likely be schools and Universities based on MBTOE principles, which will eventually become mainstream, but this is likely hundreds of years off.

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Randi,

thanks for that reply.

Yes, that is an accurate description of the status quo.

What you wrote - especially in regards to Germany - really resonates with my experience. There are several factors which lead to the severe obstacles I met while still in public education: being intelligent, fearless, critical of so-called authority and equipped with a highly sensitive feeling for justice and empathy. This got me into deep trouble starting in kindergarten, over a very hard period in elementary school and followed by several personal hells in secondary education. I had to face numerous school trials in which I was accused of all kinds of stuff I didn't do - or which if I had done them - would have been totally reasonable. Apart from the political tyranny there was this unbearable dictatorship of knowledge: enforcing contents of consciousness upon others. So, all of that lead me to drop out at the age of 17 - giving it another try at age 19 and finally dropping out again at age 21.

Well, you kinda learn how to cope with that position of not having finished formal education. Especially not to that degree that people expect you to when they realize how smart you are. But - at least in Germany - this puts you in the position of the eternal outlaw, in which you are never really respected. People simply don't trust you as long as you can't show your university degree.

I guess, what you wrote about modern companies applies in the U.S. - but not in Germany. No degree, no position. No matter how bright you are and how well you do your job. The problem is that you never get the chance to show that you can do better - because in the minds of those responsible you ought to have a degree to do it better. You will not be able to even apply for higher positions without it.

So, I don't want to grouch about that. That's on the A list. (A system Monroe once came up with: You have three lists on which you write all the things that unsettle you: the A-list being the one with things you can't change - and hence don't bother about.) But that's why I recently enlisted for psychology studies. It will be pretty hard - working nearly full time and making that degree - but that is the only chance I have to achieve a position or self-employment I desire and that fits my natural inclinations and talents.

If I get it going well I will have that degree in three years and from then chances are much better. With the education I have now only lower class jobs which have terrible conditions and extremely low payment are in my range. And that is unacceptable because this severely limits my freedom to live, learn, travel and eventually have a family at some point.

At the moment I was confronted a lot with this situation I am in - in various ways. Which is why I had a look at that speeches I linked to above. Sometimes I simply need to hear that my choices were and are justified and that I am not the only one who couldn't bear it - but isn't less smart, intelligent or creative because of that.

To say it frankly: Sometimes it just sucks having to explain yourself everyday for why you work in customer service - and not like all your classmates from back then and all the other smart and successfull people you meet - in management, some academic position or at least go to university...

This emotional state comes in phases. :) As a lot of emotional states do. But it doesn't severely affect me anymore. You come to live with that position. But sometimes it just sucks. That's all. ;) And of couse this is an excellent opportunity to develop patience, some rigorous discipline and love. I guess, you can imagine how I sometimes have a hard time listening to all this BS these "educated" peers of mine come up with. They really think their degree is a measure for something more than obedience, discipline and conformity. And these are the moments I have to hold myself back not to yell at them: "You f***** idiots! Do you actually believe you learn something in these universities? Anything an intelligent human being can't learn from reading books - by themselves and from real life experience - not being spoonfed with some brain washed outdated, biased crap???"

(If you excuse - while I am at it I might as well let the rant out... ;) )

You can probably imagine how often I am faced with the situation that people with degrees have less relevant knowledge of their subject than I do. Especially when it comes to philosophy or psychology. It's not that I am in any way exceptionally bright - but I am completely self taught. I know where to find good information and wasn't fed all that nonsense. I actually also never really had to question it - because I went to good stuff right away. The good stuff which is actually also the stuff that is either in compliance with - or at the cutting edge of modern research... Well, I guess, that applies to most everybody here.

OK. I'm finished. :D Actually I just wanted to share these speeches because I find them brilliant and entertaining. There is actually nothing new in there. But it is - as I wrote above - pleasing, motivating or encouraging hearing an accomplished "wise man" of the establishment reflecting one's own thoughts and experiences when everybody around you is amazed by the emperor's new clothes... ;)

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"Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world."

- Dao de jing, 1.

Life turns on just a few seconds

It takes a second to decide to drop out, drop in, chase this girl, drop that girl

Your past data will inform your next fork in the road when the pain of your program seems unbearable

Remember though, the key thing is that this is a test of your capacity of mind and intent over impulse, that is the muscle being exercised and certified

The dangerous thing about talent and fearlessness is that you have a wider decision space than your less evolved peers, including options that are very painful, and options that lead to a downward spiral

If you can pull this off, you will be the one eyed man in blind land, and this will be a good place to be, and that is how leaders are constructed

otherwise, you will be just another working class genius who could not make his way through the puzzle

Consider doing the best you can then crossing over to the States for grad school on scholarship...there are often opportunities to earn money as a teaching assistant in grad school

after you figure out how to pay the rent with dignity, regarding your goal of self employment, the most important thing is who you take coffee break with...I regret dropping out of my doctorate mostly for that reason...of course, in all regret and apparent failure, there is deeper learning at the soul level

there is a lot of serious action going on with education reform. One of my Florida friends is a retired district superintendent who is writing a novel with the goal of stimulating some discussion. The core battle line is between the power of teacher unions and the power of parents.

Reforming German education could be your lifes work, but to be effective, you will have to analyze the power relationships, including your personal vulnerability, as you have already had a taste of the cross.

==

PS: I can't believe I overlooked this point... my wife actually had the experience of being in the German system - her father was on a Canadian military base and they were very progressive, sending their daughter to a German school to learn German - a year before returning to Canada, they found her German was better than her english, so they switched her to the American school in town.

This of course was in the 60s. Her recollection was that the German school was focused on academics, and the American school was focused on (American) football, at least emotionally. Neither is meant to be a slur, and she appreciated the quality of her German formation, but as well, I think she benefited greatly from the experience of being an American football cheer leader.

I think the core issue here is that some cultures appreciate that life at its core is about play and joy, ....and education, work and money, only have meaning if they have this ultimate end purpose, of course, subject to the higher ruleset, which is part of play and joy.

That inconceivable entity which constructed the universe must not be greatly impressed by our GDP, skyscrapers and trophy homes, and all the overly serious people grinding through their lives to achieve these things. I am not talking about dropping out here, I am pointing to balance and having the cart before the horse, so to speak.

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Randi,

Thanks for the encouragement. ;)

Being one-eyed man in blind country must be ridiculously great! :D Seriously: I guess that's the best place you can get here.

The good thing about this study thing is that as soon as I am in let's say for half a year or a year I can take on much better jobs... Silly as it sounds: There are a lot of jobs available only to students. Which pay much better than what I am doing at the moment. Things like working shifts in rehab-clinics or something the like.

You see: They trust the unlearned student even more than a grown man - just because he is a prospective slip owner... ;)

Yap, the impulse drive is huge. Especially when faced with such "humiliating" situations which don't even pay of well. But hey, better than living in the Congo. :D It seems that the older, i.e. hopefully the more mature, I become the more I am able to tolerate. Of course I have already been through a lot and with time passed, lessons are learned.

Another thing which comes in handy this time is that I will not have to physically go to university, because I am enrolled at the only state university that offers respected correspondence courses. That means that I get my scripts send to my apartment and it depends on myself, when and what to learn. The only thing I have to do is pass the exams - which pretty much resonates with my autodidactic way of learning. (Yes, state university is a good thing here in Germany. I know that in the US the private Colleges have a much better reputation - but here it is the other way round. You know how slavish the Germans can be. ;) Everything has to have an official stamp on it for it to be worth anything... )

Having a wider decision space can indeed open up a lot of unworthy opportunities - but that's the test. The more freedom you have - the more you can fail - or win...

Going abroad might be an option at some point. But at the moment I have to get my act together - right here and now. And what comes after that: time will tell...

Reforming the German education system is by the way a task that will definitely bring you either into the politician's mafia or a psychiatry. :D I've seen quite a bunch of people involved in that. I guess, my focus should lie somewhere else. And for that to fit German customs, I would have to study pedagogy and not psychology - otherwise I wouldn't know what I am talking about - because these two fields are just so different... :D

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"Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world."

- Dao de jing, 1.

Speaking of pedagogy I just heard on the news the the U.S. is adopting a new education standards where one change they are making is to start teaching algebra vocabulary and concepts from preschool on up. That way when they get to it in eighth grade it will be familiar or as I like to say there will be a file folder created already for the information. I've had this file folder concept for decades although now I can see it as one sub-folder in the eventual file folder containing the data represent "Bette" left in the database when I'm done.
Love
Bette

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All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Nemo. I hear you, see you and understand you.

This though; don't confuse your experience of "being the teenager you" and the total relevance of the school system.

The school system was the scratch - you were the itch. But anything in life becomes a scratch as long as you are itching. There more you keep escaping from scratchy surfaces, the more abrasive the whole world becomes.

You've described some weird family issues and chaotic life history. That colors all associated memories and consequent decisions.

Are you right brained because you needed fantasy to escape from the reality of your family? Are you resentful because the school system treated you without regard for you personal needs? And so on ...

Real bagage is difficult to drop because you're constructed from it, and you can't distinguish it from any other part of yourself.

(Edit: Wow. I'm profound today.)

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Johan

Yes, Bette. This happens everywhere I guess: Trying to prepare children for economical warfare.

This kind of education kills every last bit of creativity within the child. But hey - you gotta be competetive. Otherwise the China-man will rule the planet - instead of us white little gods... ;) You know how these people think. I find it hard to believe that this mess could go even further. But in the end everything that is constructed bad enough will break into pieces.

And if they really go down that way - despite all warnings, their end as supposed rulers will only come sooner... Embracing the world, rather than fighting it should be the reaction. But some people don't get the lesson.

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"Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world."

- Dao de jing, 1.

Well, these things can't be distinguished that easily. Personality, growth and decision making are a complicated feedback loop - not some growing monolithic block on a scale. But yes, of course there have been several influences at work in creating my present lifetime package. And one influenced the other.



True. (and yes: profound. ;) )

You see that is the main thing I am working at for years now: trying to weave the threads apart and to see what kind of behavioral and emotional patterns have been programed (either by observation and repetition, manipulation or sheer force) - which ones were a reaction to a chaotic life situation and turned neurotic - which ones are genuine expression of my true inner nature... Sorting stuff out. In some cases the only way to see what is going on with yourself is to see how others react and carefully observing their way of doing things. And then you can even break up patterns that you would not have noticed otherwise. But it is a huge task. I am getting better at it though... :P And: It's a lot of fun - AND: You get rewarded right away. Because once you see through the clouds - and you take the step of just letting go and embracing a new day for a new day - life gets better and better. ;)

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"Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world."

- Dao de jing, 1.

Such profound imagery.

Seriously though. I had a vision today of wading through a shallow swimming pool wearing a wedding gown. It represented being held back by the remnants of the ego we still drag around ... if I made a modern painting I might have titled it "In The Net Of Broken Dreams".

So powerful.

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Johan

Is the search function working yet?

There was quite a bit of threadery some time ago concerning the ghastly intentions of modern educational ideas. Ted has quite a bit of material on this, and others posted links to lengthy, even book-length esasys and discussions about this topic. It's an important one.

Montana