That's all well and good just not realistic and also it is divisive rather than inclusive. Have luck as that will give you luck to start with.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

I'll give you another chance to answer the question. What is your cure Fred?
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Bette, Since you ask for details I will share, getting off the dope is not that complicated if one dedicates themselves to doing so. The biggest problem at first is that compulsion to use which is kin to a bomb going off. To diminish that it requires a strong focus intent to do so, tools like the 12 steps can be very effective in particular the first 3, I tell people to use them any way they want, modify them, or make up some, any tool that helps you focus your intent to get sober is a good tool. All we seem to be doing here is modifying the future probability of the measurement of that compulsion coming into our awareness.Which is very uncertain.When that happens (starts to diminish) one knows they are on to something, its up to them at that point to find a way that best suits them. Getting of the dope is much harder than staying off. Its all about intent we follow that intent whether it be positive or negative. This seems to be how this works. Fred searching for truth

Fred,

Are you aware that you are not really saying anything here? What you are saying is not that dissimilar from Douglas Adams description of how to learn to fly by falling and missing the ground.

Ted

Well Ted I was wondering when you where going to chime in, the correlation between what I said and whoever you mentioned may be true. And yes I am very aware of what I am saying it is apart of my direct on going experience that I live. Take whatever you can and disregard the rest, or disregard it all if you like. Fred searching for truth

If you read this thread carefully, you may notice that people's complaint with Fred is not that he supports sobriety or that he wants kids to stay off drugs, but that he will not consider other dimensions of a very complex issue. I am certainly not going to engage him further on this issue because of his closed-mindedness.

Are you certain that Tom would appreciate your tying his views directly to those of Fred? Fred here is offering a largely discredited, un-elaborated, Reagan-era "just say no" prescription for drug abuse, whereas Tom in the thread you linked to, was speaking with much more nuance and sophistication about the use of consciousness-expanding drugs for lowering entropy.



The environment may contribute to drug abuse and drug addiction (in the form of stressors, e.g.), but the urge to use drugs to manage inner pain truly arises from within. I was around alcohol and drugs throughout high school, but did not start abusing them until I was 18 and experienced a crisis in self-esteem and found out my dad was having an affair. You think religious schools are the answer to drug abuse? I guarantee you those kids, if hurting or stressed inside, will find other kids at that boarding school to drink vodka with behind the dorms, or vandalize the school, or fight with, etc. See this book review for a bit more on the topic.

Consider Tom's words here: "Creating the right environment first typically retards progress by inadvertently putting the cart before the horse, causing energy to be focused on issues of minor importance. Successful learning does not flow from the right environment - the right environment flows from successful learning."

Getting clean is not a simple matter of just saying no. Are you familiar with the conception of a "dry drunk?" It is someone who has stopped drinking, but who has never dealt with the underlying pain and stress that gave rise to his alcoholism. Getting clean is a long process of coming to terms with the worst things that you have suffered in your life. Talk to addicts about the deprivations they've suffered: deprivation of parental love and reinforcement, family stability, a secure sense of self, deprivation of success, of hope, of a voice. This deprivation opens up a hole which they try to fill with the drug, and it works on a short-term scale. The pain they feel fades as their brain floods with rewarding neurotransmitters. It is not until they come down that they begin to see that the drug is not a long-term solution, that it even contributes to the pain. But they cannot stop using it, and they are not likely to stop, until they see a professional who can guide them through the process of acceptance and forgiveness, and help them back on a path towards recreating their life.

It will take a caring and accepting social infrastructure to accomplish this--one we do not currently have and one we will not have if we continue taking the tack that "drugs are bad mmkay" and give a simplistic "the best way to stay off drugs is not to take them." Bette hit the nail on the head: this is divisive rather than inclusive. It's also utterly naive.

_________________
Everything is simpler than we can imagine, at the same time more complex and intertwined than can be comprehended--Goethe, Maxims & Reflections

In my opinion, this thread is a good example of belief system dynamics in operation.

:-)

Fred, people, at a visceral level, do not like to be told how to think...how to believe (be-live), how to assemble their view of the world, even if what is said seems true. And it seems that many folks are almost hard-wired to bristle and take exception when it occurs. I imagine your remarks, and the energy behind them, stem from some recent personal incident, insight, or realization, and I don't mean to make light of that in the remarks that follow, OK?

Someone could start a new thread titled "The Sky Is Blue!" and the initial post would be to the effect that the writer observes that the sky is blue, and demand that people need to notice it and see it that way.

You know what the ensuing thread would look like...?
</ puts on one of those cone hats with stars and moons and comets and Saturns on it that prophets and sorcerers wear when foretelling the future)

Bette: (within 15 minutes) Do you mean blue as in sad? Any way sometimes the sky is red. Blue is just a color.

Ted: </phaser set on MBT-stun> This is just another data stream, reducible to ones and zeroes. It is not immediately clear how this relates to MBT.

Montana: It certainly *looks* that way from one point of view... it sounds like you spend a lot of time hanging out at the earth's surface. Once you move around some your view may change.

SS: In many areas, the sky appears gray much of the day. 46.372% of the time, it appears 'dark' (night) to the human eye, which registers electromagnetic activity above an average of 4972.6 photons per square centimeter per 10^-1 seconds in a spectrum segment from, on average, 3912.19 to 7793.93 angstroms.

Tom: </rolls eyes, clicks out of thread, and returns to gravitational anomaly fluctuation probability spreadsheets>

One third of the women would think 'Ho Great! Another GD male chauvanist raping the world with another phallacy!'

One third of the guys would think 'I'm not readin this thread: it won't help me pick up babes...!'

1/2 of the minority groups: 'All's ya gotta do is be white in America, and people listen!''

DHS silent observer thinking: 'hmm... it probably won't, but this could turn into a movement. better make a note!'

Self Righteous silent TMI observer thinking: 'A Just Karma on those that deign to leave the flock!'


.... and on and on till the thing exhausts itself and everyone has played their role.





Fred, in general ideas get more reception here if they get pre-fixed or suffixed with a clear explicit clause that makes it obvious that what ever ideas are being presented are something that get some attention 'in-house' (that is, between the writer's ears) and are being offered to share for more input:

"You know... it seems like..."
"IT looks like to me..."
"In my opinion..."
"... Of course, this is just my understanding at this time"
"My mother-in-law always says that...."



For all of us that responded to the initial (cross-addiction) post either writing on the board or just thinking of writing: maybe take a retro-snapshot of your psyche in action: that is what psyches, yours in particular, look like when they are engaging in belief-system resistance. Note especially that it seems to be in many cases an unconscious knee-jerk mechanism. How many of asked ourselves, in our fist response, "Hmm... I wonder what motivated Fred to make that post...? Was there some recent weighty event in his life related to this ? Or is there some other motive....?"

Um... All just my opinion, of course. :-)

Montana

S.lareck, relax a little you raise good points about some people needing to realize that using dope to cover up feelings is a bad idea for the most part, the other reason people use is because they just like that feeling. The real problem begins when full blown addiction comes in play. When this happens in my view there is a simple approach to but it in remission. Its much better in my view to never start in the first place, not to say this painful diversity of despair can not be a good learning tool as it can, it just seems like all that pain is not necessary there are better ways of learning without all that pain, it does seem unfortunate that it seems to be the norm. But it does not have to be that way, that is the message I try to communicate to other people as well as myself. As far as drugs being a positive thing I agree they are in some areas, they work wonders. I am not talking about that when I say ZERO tolerance it is all about the abuse. And people can make that determination for themselves.Yes we are complex beings but some things really do have a simple approach. Find a message that best suits your experience we all have a great deal to offer. I find being the object of change to be a very effective one. Fred searching for truth

That was funny because it was so true just like The Simpson's. I Love you Montana thanks for that.

I seriously thought this thread might have been about addiction to religion but nope.

Fred we have different experiences with drugs but just saying no didn't work. I do have several ideas though to help anyone that wants to stop especially meth since that seems to be the most harmful right below alcohol as far as others hurting others.

Please read MBT Fred it might just help you in your search and any savvy searcher searches thoroughly.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

s.lareck,

thank you for your wise post.

Lena

_________________
'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.

Montana,



Lena

_________________
'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.

Bette is right it is funny! and the feedback I have been getting in the short time I have been posting has far exceeded my expectations.As far as the uncertainty in my approach in life, well I just seem to know I don't have all the answers. Maybe Bette is right living our life out of a book could be our answers to truth. Heavens knows a lot of fundamentalist think so. as far as beliefs go I see no need for them when you experientialy know a thing. One thing I have learned is the people that resist the most to ZERO tolerance are usually the ones doing the dope! which is fine with me I learn a lot from them too. I did expected this type of mindset here no surprise, I thought when starting the post I would learn something different, and in the course nudge somebody in the right direction. Me included, I now know beyond any doubt that this topic gets a lot people to think deep for themselves that is where the real truth hides. Did not mean to blow anybody's high! Fred searching for truth

I never said live your life out of a book and find that idea the antithesis of thinking for ones self. Now you are out of line putting words into my mouth Fred.

Your ideal of never using drugs in the first place is a good idea but it is empty without more thought than just say no.

You are only blowing your own high Fred as you are blowing hot air because you have nothing beside don't do drugs..
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Bette, that one always gets a rise out of the book thump-ers, not saying you are one, you are my horse if you never win a race! You are correct I do blow a lot of hot air! but not about ZERO tolerance I am as serious about that as a heart attack! Again if you know anybody having a hard time getting clean maybe I can help. We are all different and the reasons people understand for not doing drugs differ. I would be glad to talk to anybody about getting sober. I really do think it is a better way of living. Fred searching for truth

To mention and then move past the condescension and again to say you are about as much fun as a heart attack lately you are saying something obvious. Yes, it's a very hard life being addicted to chemicals that have physiological effects making us have to have them just to be "normal" and getting out of that spiral is a very good thing. Never having got into it is a better thing, sure, that is obvious. "Getting sober" and "ZERO tolerance" IF you are being real means ALL psychoactive substances in this Reality frame are to be avoided. Do you realize that? You keep saying send vulnerable people to you but you say nothing about what you would do to them. I don't trust you Fred you are seeming more and more full of it, sorry. And I apologize for being that way.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.