This may seem like a bit of a paradox and it has been explained from two different perspectives by Tom in his presentations. Assuming that consciousness is a digital information system then:

Tom uses a hard disk metaphor to describe that the partition that separates a IUOC from the larger consciousness system, that is deleted upon death and that we are one with the larger system. Upon re-entering PMR a chunk ‘off the old block’ bubbles off from the larger system and is constrained by the PMR rule set, thus interpreting the data stream as physical reality with a 'virtual' body.

If this partition is deleted upon death, then we can use the physical metaphor of a drop in the ocean falling back into the sea. All the 'information' contained in that drop disperses into the ocean and becomes one with it, because really it is just data if consciousness is an information system. To re-create the same drop seems impossible?

That would mean most of us that incarnate now are mixed back in with the larger system and only an infinitesimal part of the same energy makes it back to incarnate again, so how could we possibly be aware of or have a past life?
If it is the same energy incarnating again that is ‘us’, then that partition is never deleted and we can never be truly ‘one’ with the larger system, except by a matter of perspective?

Now of course everything is a matter of perspective and we are all ‘one’ with the larger system anyway, depending on where we are focused, so there is no need for concern not to be part of it. Logically if the evolution of the larger system is of primary importance, then why would it want to recycle the same units of consciousness? Why not ‘dissolve’ them all back completely and start with fresh ones?

The IUOC is not deleted in any way, upon the death of the physical body. The fragment that is the PMR you is not deleted either, it exists as information in the historic database, and can always be made active again.

You are in truth part of the IUOC, the part that has be 'partitioned' to agree by the PMR rule-set while engaged in this VR. If or when this partitioning is no longer useful, I imagine that the subset (us) will just re-merge with the IUOC's awareness, we (as in the PMR personality) are never a separate being from the IUOC to begin with, it's rather one whole being that can some smart tricks that enable one to be more useful.

There are a few threads here on the board that deals with this aspect,

Try this one for a starter :-)
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2834&p=4536

One post from the thread: It's straight to the point, and very useful.

Dom,

If you are willing to take the time and expend the effort, you might read Tom's model as described on the Wiki: http://wiki.my-big-toe.com/index.php/In ... _MBT_Model
This is the beginning and there are about 20 pages total. This will give you a more 'technical' and detailed understanding of how these things fit together. It can convey information that the simple word descriptions and metaphors like describing it as playing video games cannot, if you can fully understand it. It lacks yet a final page and a lot of the detailed linkages to definitions that should be there in a Wiki. Any errors are mine, not Tom's.

Ted

this is my limited understanding of this...

consciousness requires memory/learning at the apparently eternal level of the higher self in an iterative process, normally ratcheting toward lower entropy/higher Quality of Consciousness with each intent->decision->action->feedback loop

PMR level memory is mostly wiped clean/blocked at the PMR level each simulation in order to clear the fresh Free Will Awareness Unit (FWAU) of accumulated self limiting beliefs, but the memory is saved as a somewhat accessible archive in non-physical material reality. (NPMR).

its like how a 2 year old takes to an Ipad faster than an 80 year old....the 2 year old is a clean slate better prepared for the new environment (technologywise as well as QoC wise), the older person is normally (with some notable local exceptions!) held back with an accumulation of belief and obsolete skills based on experiences associated with an earlier normally higher entropy entry level at the Individuated Unit of Consciousness (IUOC) level, not to mention a changed PMR environment technology-wise.

to clarify, there are two streams, evolving technology, and evolving QoC. Your IUOCs entropy is normally lower at the end of a simulation than at the beginning, so it is more efficient to start over with clean belief slate so that the next FWAU can figure things out from the point of view of his/her new higher level of QoC starting point, acquire better albeit self limiting belief, and then do it again and again, ever reaching for less inefficient belief....until you reach the point of "I have no idea what the frig is going on"....and complete openness.

it appears there is no why and little planning...the system is trying out different approaches and seeing what works - the model you envision is likely churning away "somewhere" with lessor or greater effectiveness.

Ted will clarify if I am off track or he may wait for you to do your homework and return.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Dom,

Randy is not off track. A hint as to why I suggested what I did to you. I have written of this a number of times before and I will make it even shorter here. What that model will show you is that the nature of our reality as it has been discovered in the field of pure mathematics made it probable that a certain type of development would occur within Consciousness Space or the LCS. This is for what eventually became us (IUOCs) to develop along with the RWW as a means to functionally interconnect all of the LCS 'globally'. Otherwise everything would have been 'local' with communication only within a limited area. This allowed these proto IUOCs to unite as AUO with consciousness. Then AUO gifted us with consciousness by creating the NPMRs as VRs for us to experience ourselves within. This then progressed to PMRs for their higher intensity VR experience and finally AUO became AUM. As we are inherent building blocks of the LCS, we are not dissolved and re constituted. The LCS is not an amorphous field of knowledge as information. That functionality is stored within us as IUOCs. What we specifically know as to technology and localized PMR knowledge, it is not important or fundamental outside of PMR. I hope that is not too confusing.

Ted

A simple way to model it, consistent with all the above, is to understand that all that stuff that we tend to include in the idea of identity (modeling systems, feelings, patterns of feeling, skill sets, habits, etc etc) are just the accoutrements of an 'IUOC', not the IUOC itself.

Identities we suppose ourselves to be are just the clothing, interchangable, particularly suited to some uses and weathers, and not others, that consciousness wears.

Wearing the same outfit everyday actually can be a sort of fly-wheel to a sense of sustained identity; but for the most part, it can be pretty dysfunctional. Why insist on re-donning a parka when you find yourself at the beach; or surf-gear at the arctic, or over-alls on 5th avenue?

-Montana

Ted -

The Wiki is good work. It must have taken a lot of days to write and review. This is definitely a a 'high level' perspective and highlights fundamental core ideas. It has given me some interesting visuals analogous to the formation of the universe. It is good that you are describing it from your viewpoint, as it is useful to have a different perspective to cover the same ideas that sometimes went over my head in MBT.

I will have to read it again because it is very compact and intense reading - however you have done a great job keeping it concise and straight to the point. You may be on the way to writing a good overview that you could publish - because it would be nice to see on paper too. I will happily be your customer! There are a few things that I missed in the trilogy that this looks like it will cover.

Specialis -
Thanks for the essential information with Tom's metaphor of the cowboy. It is good to have the refresher that it is virtual and there is no death, although at present I have not had much conscious awareness of the 'me' playing the computer game and imagine that it could be quite a different state of being in that state of awareness from a stronger perspective of the 'me' at home?
I get flashbacks maybe during meditation, but they are very dim, hard to translate and only last a second or two? Maybe I should cut the sugar Tom has been talking about?

Kroeran -
Good to mention that we all start fresh again - so that we are not too biased in one way or the other that would reduce the usefulness of the simulation, but thanks for the pointers.

Montana -
Thanks also. You are mentioning that the ego 'identity' is not the true identity and that it is useful to have different experiences to maximize our growth potential? I hope I am following?

Dom,

I suspect that the Wiki is the only place that the write up I did on Tom's model will be published. If you noticed, Tom made his books available for free on line and makes no money on their paper version publication. The volume is insufficiently high. I have basically given up publishing as a book myself. My 'chapters' will simply become part of the Wiki. The goal is to get this information into PMR society, not to make money from a book publication. I believe Tom and understand this to be our assignment to do from the LCS with me assisting Tom any way that I can. Pages on a Wiki can be printed out if desired, you know.

I need to put a lot more links in the Wiki model back to Tom's books. That however is not easy to do. I am satisfied that what I wrote is Tom's model, just stated as you say at a higher level. As I have mentioned, Tom and I do have correspondence and I wrote that up right after finally realizing clearly some of the descriptions that I used within that write up and discussed briefly with Tom. Specifically realizing the full meaning and power of the meta reality concept and clarifying with Tom that he did in fact envision the LCS as a cellular automaton related to the description by Dr. Edward Fredekin which Tom refers to in MBT and which discusses the reality cells of the LCS as a cellular automaton. It is there in Tom's descriptions, but just not flatly stated. I believe that he wanted to emphasize other aspects of the reality cells and not have us think just in terms of a mathematical toy. Tom also has an extended thought on the evolutionary principle which applies to a cellular automaton as well as PMR biology. Tom's model became spread out through a large part of his books with many asides and much paraphrasing. Tom wrote his book by having versions read and then expanding them as people reported problems of understanding. This made the books somewhat driven by others and less coherent in a sense. I believe that Tom and I both have the same vision of the Wiki becoming the highest level expression of the information within MBT that we can make it. Tom just has no time to write there as yet and leaves it to me at present. I very much doubt that Tom let me write all of that without at least reading it himself. I personally await his additions and possible corrections.

I don't know if you are the only person who has actually ever read this part of the Wiki all the way through. Probably you are not. You are however the first that ever gave me much real feedback on it and I thank you for that.

Ted

Additionally, this, from Tom, which I found via Ted's main page wiki entry linked above:

Tom:

Mostly, individual personalities persist and are maintained -- particularly if they are effective learners. There is some advantage in building on what is already established and in maintaining a continuity of accumulating experience. However, sometimes if a particular individual personality is unproductive it will be retired (absorbed) and perhaps replaced with something more effective. However, that individual (as an very accurate statistical model -- i.e., an assemblage of all the information that defined that individual personality along with probability information) will still be present in the historical database and is fully accessible there - it's just that new data will not be generated or updated to that personality file. That "retired" individual personality could always be given a free will again and reconstituted as an active unit -- they are fully defined in the database. Bottom line: If you want maintain the privilege of exercising free will, it would be a good idea to exercise it effectively. Evolution can be a pretty ruthless (efficient) process.

(viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2668)

Montana: In general, personality structures and sub-structures can and do persist and get redeployed, pretty much like software sub-routines. Generally this is useful (just about everywhere you go the Web, if you type "A" on your keyboard, you get "A" on the screen). But sometimes it is clumsy and/or tedious (notice how almost anywhere you go on the web, when you are filling in an address, the very same click-down box shows up for "State"? Not so bad if you live in Alabama, but tedious enough if you live in Wyoming). It is the same with these structures: structures for modeling, leadership, observation, data-procession, agency, etc etc, and all their subroutines, are subject to improvement. However, what works tends to be kept in use; what works well, especially so.

So the collection of stuff that we humans tend to think of when we think of our 'selves', most of that is a collection of these subroutines. Identifying with all that is the provenance of 'ego' as the term is used here on these forums. Eventually we learn that none of that IS the self, anymore than the hat you used to wear, or that very familiar and super comfortable pair of faded jeans. But, if you are heading out in the rain, that old hat might be just the thing, and you'll find your 'self' reaching for it again.

-Montana

These are really good questions, Dom.

Prior to reading MBT I had arrived at a model that likened each lifetime to a DVD that one would slide into a player and watch through to the end in a completely absorbed fashion. I saw it this way partially because I remembered two recurring "dreams" that I had as a very young child where I was living in an adult body in another time and place.

I had no idea what they were at the time but as an adult I reviewed the scenes in meditation and I concluded that one was in Sumeria about 2000-3000BC and the other near Romania about 1000AD. I was maybe four or five years old and this was back when TV had very little going on and often displayed a test pattern. I had only watched cartoons and sat in the same room during Perry Mason and I Love Lucy episodes. There was no way that sort of historical detail could have been presented to me in this lifetime. The dreams played out incomprehensible adult scenarios, repeating exactly, and ending in my untimely death in both cases.

From observation of those images, and then this lifetime also, and the actions of those around me I pretty much came to the conclusion that if there is such a thing as free will, almost no one is actually exercising it. On the rare occasions where it might have come about I likened it to choosing an "alternate ending" scene that we see in some DVD/movies. Most watch beginning to end and just accept what comes but for those who bother to make the effort alternative scenarios can be played out.

I am still trying to get a clear concept of what it is that is doing the "watching".

I also want to get a better grasp of what the IUOC was before, what it is now, and what is it trying to become, and why is it going to all the bother...?.....

It is nice to find helpful books to read on the topic but imho there is no substitute for personal experience. I began attempting conscious exploration of the NPMR a couple years ago and I am making slow progress. Ideally I can learn enough to consciously choose the circumstances of my next lifetime and be done with this project.

Rudy.

Rudy,

This post finally gives me some insight as to why you are here and what you look for. You might take my suggestion above that Dom followed through on and read the model on the Wiki linked in this thread above. I have posted, as has Tom in addition to what is in his books, about the nature of IUOCs and their relationship to the selves we seem to have in this VR of PMR and in NPMR and serving as integral parts of the LCS and all that there is as AUM. What you really are is one inextricably linked set of functions and experiences engaged in by the one thing that you really are which is a non physical digital IUOC. This has been explained here in many different sets of words. You may choose to not believe in Tom's model but if you accept it, it can explain perfectly what you experienced in these repeated dreams as a child. What happened in your two prior lives, as what they sound like, is perfectly preserved in the past actualized data base. You can go back and experience 'dream' as segments of those lives. What you are as an actual being, the digital IUOC referred to, can go back and experience those lives again. You can go back and experience those lives again. And what you perceive yourself to be here and now is that same IUOC experiencing yourself as you think yourself to be here and now. Being digital and experiencing a very fast cycle rate of fundamental delta t increments of the LCS, your IUOC can spend most of its time being part of everything that is, a fair amount of time increments stuck in there of being the continuous 'you' that exists in NPMR and the occasional increment of time that is what you experience yourself as here and now within PMR. All on a repeating cycle of time sharing of experience tracks.

If you read the model, you will see that free will is inherent and necessary to consciousness. If anyone expresses less than free will here it is because they let themselves be deluded within the PMR VR and reduce their scope of free will, their decision space, that way. You have free will at its most basic nature or you stop being conscious and experiencing anything. Part of your seeing others as having limited free will would appear to be your belief that since they do not agree with your conclusions, they must be deluded and have little or no free will. Not that you are likely to agree with this or even perhaps with any part of it.

Ted

I did not say that I saw others as having limited free will.

I said, "I pretty much came to the conclusion that if there is such a thing as free will, almost no one is actually exercising it." There is a big difference. REALLY big difference. I have seen Tom making similar comments about the choice to exercise that privilege, or not.

You seem to suffer not just a chronic inability to reply to what I am actually saying, but you appear to be continuously going out of your way to pull a dark cloud out of the silver lining.

I guess it was inevitable but it looks like a lot of folks have incorporated MBT into their psyche as little more than just another "Belief System". If you don't mind, I will hold all this at arms length and treat the model in an objective manner. I will evaluate all claims according to my own personal experience here in PMR as well as NPMR.

Because of recent demands on my time and effort during the week I generally explore NPMR only on early Saturday and Sunday mornings. Based on what I am seeing I am getting the distinct impression that few here are able to even semi-regularly enter that state. There is very little original NPMR discussion here extending from personal experience. The discussion revolves more around the written word delivered by the master and adherence to dogma.

?

Rudy.

If you had actually read MBT you might have a better understanding of what is going on here. "I pretty much came to the conclusion that if there is such a thing as free will, almost no one is actually exercising it." seems to translate pretty much to others having little or no free will.

Look around and pay attention, read the books, learn something or not. Accept well meant suggestions or wander totally in the dark. You have worked very hard continually to convince me that there is no reason why I should care on my part. There may be 'true believers' here but I for one know what I am talking about for totally understood reasons. That is why Tom asked me to administer the board.

Ted

No it doesn't. The "if" part of the if/then logical exploration plainly allows for the possibility of free will so right there it is easy to see how false your interpretation is. In the links you provided Tom explains how something like 99% of the recently departed get elementary school treatment is consistent with my observation.

In the MBT text I have seen similar commentary.



Heheh. Its nice to see a confident man with a positive self image. :))

Maybe so, Ted, but I'm guessing Tom's evaluation of only about .001% of humanity rating adult treatment in the death transition processing centers may also provide perspective on this. You don't need to be a master of differential calculus to teach arithmetic to pre-schoolers.

Note: I am not saying that to peg you to any particular level but only to show the office does not imply advanced levels of attainment.





The "If you want maintain" condition implies that the free will privilege can be removed...?!....

And it would not be instructive or useful to say that if it weren't a possible outcome to some viable degree.

Rudy you have no idea what anyone had as their reality before MBT came into their life here. Nobody EVER asked you to do anything but do your own work so you guessing you will do your own work while still clamoring for fun stories from NPMR to appease your egoic belief that the ability to come back with stories means something about you as a person other than showing your ego but nothing about anyone here and the lack of the stories you desire. Robert Monroe tells good NMPR if that pleases you. The discussion here may be too deep for your shallow mind here is probably the issue Rudy. There are threads here about NPMR experiences but the use of them is not to feed your ego. It means not squat if you NPMR and can tell people about it in the Big Picture so seeming to be needing that or desiring that is very telling if one was all up in judging people by their character faults.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.