Hi folks.

When watching the latest video, the Reality 101, some questions came up, one of them being:

Tom mentions (at 47 min) that a squirrel has consciousness but a tree has not.
Having consciousness he defines as an entity that has a finite decision space.

So Tom says that a tree has no consciousness.
But still it lives, and most certainly makes lots of decisions during its lifetime.

How does this work out if we look back through history? We see that before there were any animals or bacteria, there were a time with only plants being "live" entities. The situation for those plants, over millions of years, look pretty strange, if there were no animals or humans there to "render" them real.

What do you think?

Here is a good quote from Tom on this subject:

Individual plants do not meet all of the criteria for possessing sentient consciousness (as we define it here)‚ i.e., enough memory to define change, to differentiate one state from another; enough processing capability to learn from experience; enough awareness of self to have a finite decision space that can be utilized by a free will, and some way to transfer energy and information between itself and its environment (an ability to intentionally interact with its inside and outside environment). In other words: a conscious entity must be able to modify itself based on its own individual free will intent‚ it has the ability to evolve by intentionally lowering the entropy of its system. Notice that a species of plant comes closer to satisfying these requirements in a very rudimentary way than does an individual plant (by virtue of its evolving species specific genetic material) but that all consciousness is individual.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=882&hilit=Individual+plants+do+not+meet+all+of+the+criteria

Slorri,

Let's try to explain some things about Virtual Realities. They exist primarily within The Big Computer as calculations based upon probabilities. Initial conditions are set and the switch thrown to start the calculation. It does not matter that no one is there to observe. Just like when I did calculations in grad school trying to model our PMR reality and its rule set in a simple physical situation although in this case the rule set is known and built into the programming. I did not have to be watching every calculation for the computer to do its work.

So the universe can be projected ahead billions of PMR years with no observations what so ever, including while 'life' without consciousness develops. Once consciousness niches as organisms that have a decision space develop, then TBC starts to send out data to those organisms which are selected to participate in that PMR type VR. Those organisms develop based upon the probability calculations of the rule set in TBC. When they come into existence, there are waiting IUOCs of however low level capability (limited decision space) to take on the role of conscious decision maker for that virtual entity. Those that are plants and not conscious, no decision space, are not connected to IUOCs. Whatever ever decisions, like turning toward the light, that they make are not decisions but the carrying out of the rule set. It is built into their physiology. And all of the time that they, as plants, are the only living things, without consciousness, they are not rendered for observation by consciousness bearing thingies because they, the conscious thingies, do not exist as yet. It is the way things work in a VR to only calculate what is necessary. The probability that plants exist need only be accounted for in TBC as a probability until such time as there is a conscious observer, perhaps eating those same plants, at which time the plant and surroundings are rendered according to the rule set and the probability calculation for observation by that consciousness.

Moving on to the time that there are humans in existence, whatever surrounds them, based upon probability calculations within TBC is rendered into an appropriate data stream to represent their PMR VR experience. The same goes for all of the other creatures of high level to low level consciousness and from large to small. Each rendered according to the rule set and a data stream sent to the IUOC that provides their decision making.

Ted

hmmm.... So then, if there were a huge virus storm unleashed by a research lab that suddenly wiped out all IUOC entities in existence, the 'evolution' of all other life forms would continue in the fashion that could be extrapolated according to the rule set on a default level and without the IUOC intent related VR manifestion 'distortions' that might deviate from that condition, and would simply proceed from that point?

Rudy

Rudy,

Many options would be available to the LCS depending upon what it considered to be of optimum value. The system could be backed up to a suitable point, changes made as perhaps removing the offending entities causing the disaster from the system and the system restarted from there and we would not remember. The information would be in the data base, but our active memory would be what had just happened before the restart point. The system could be restarted from new and completely redeveloped although this seems unlikely as this is considered to be a pretty productive VR, kindergarten as it is. Remember that the goal is the reduction of entropy through intense interaction and feedback. We have that intense interaction and feedback and 'graduates' from here are considered to do well and are productive within the system. I am sure that there are more options than I can think of. It is no more of a problem than restarting a computer program when you run a continuous backup. That is the way that VRs work except the computer is very powerful and the programming more sophisticated than any that we can imagine at our technological development level, never to be equaled from here in PMR.

Ted

You are starting out with an incorrect premise in bold which probably won't lead anywhere useful.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Thanks Ted, a thorough answer.

This leads me to two other questions; the first one being:

I believe it was Dean Radin who mentioned a research some time back where they used some type of lie-detector on a plant, and then some person threatened to or actually did do damage to the plant and/or some plant near by; After this the plant reacted violently (on the lie-detector) each time that person came near. This would indicate that the plant not only was aware of this potential threat but it also remembered the person responsible for it.

In this situation it does look like the plant has consciousness and memory at least.
What do you think about that research?

I'm indicating that plants might be more aware and conscious than people think, (even in a VR).

Slorri,

That research has been discussed on this BB before. The LCS and the VR are not unresponsive to the intent of conscious entities. It is not the plant that is reacting but the LCS that is reacting to the conscious intent being expressed which results in a response from the plant which is after all entirely a production of the LCS as part of the VR. Speak lovingly to your plants, water and 'feed' them well and see if they don't grow well for you. Not because they appreciate your efforts as a conscious entity but because of your intent that they do well. And the water and fertilizer don't hurt either.

Ted

This book is a fun read:

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Life-Plant ... 0060915870

Hi Slorri,

I recommend reading this thread: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5305

One can learn a lot from it, at least I did :)

Attempts to repeat those old studies and their reported results have been inconclusive.

From Wikipedia;



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perc ... paranormal)

or try

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perc ... anormal%29


I believe Tom spoke about the "Freezing water crystal" patterns in the Hawaii lectures (? I think?) and how the experimenter's intent is part of the outcome.

I believe plants may have consciousness.

Based on what ? Did you read the link S_S provided ?

The original modern experimentation as far as I'm aware, is
Cleve Backster and Ingo Swann's effort:



If one uses modern technology of EM waves transmitted and then received at a destination one can surmise that BOTH ends of the dynamic are important to the completed information transaction.

Thus as far as replication 'failures' are concerned it absolutely is essential to establish comprehensive protocols to ensure the integrity of the experiment.

This is exactly the point <a href="http://www.skeptiko.com/garret-moddel-brings-psi-to-colorado/">Garret Moddel has made:</a>

RBM: Some people claim they have, like the quote you showed, and based on my intuition I would say it's true. And also based on the understanding that there is much more than the phyisical: So they may possess consciousness, for example, a tree is standing still, but in a non phyisical way she may be doing all sorts of stuff our laughing for all I know. Of course, they "may" or "may not" does not exist: Either they do or do not. I just do not know for sure, but my intuition would say they possess some kind of consciousness.

Plus I've read all cultures troughout the ages have interacted with plants as intelligent beings.

Cultures have done all sorts of incorrect things before they knew better like believing in gods and such. Sentient entities are bits of Consciousness while plants are props that can be interpreted all sorts of ways but they don't have free will.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.