Determinism, as a philosophical view, makes no exceptions. If one must account for where it applies and where it does not determinism is false. If uncertainty exists determinism is false. Scientists, typically I think, won't argue that the quantum world is deterministic but will maintain that at our level of reality, described by classical physics, determinism is true. Tom's model is unique in that it posits uncertainty at our level of reality.

My language was a little unclear. I meant to connect the idea of uncertainty at our level of reality with the idea of consciousness being fundamental, rather than to argue that determinism is false because consciousness is fundamental, which would be fallacious reasoning.



So our self is a part of the "natural" world.

Free will skeptics often criticize free will by attacking the notion of a supernatural self standing outside of the laws of physics and intervening when choices are made, they see that particular notion of free will as the only sensible alternative to their own view.



Physics is basically a description of reality. There is no reality without consciousness on Tom's model, therefore consciousness is an integral part of physics, as consciousness is an integral part of reality.

Advaita,

I see your logic as misapplied.Apply this in PMR. It does not fit within Tom's model in which there are places where determinism applies and others where it does not apply.

Part of the natural world in the sense that there is in Tom's model no natural world and no super natural world, only the LCS and everything else exists within it.

Ted

Advaita,

In an absolute sense, I believe your claim has some merit, but deterministic systems are not problematic within a consciousness system - e.g. calculators.

Right. That is what I meant.

Apologies if this has already been discussed. Does the following provide evidence that we do not have free will?

Experiment by scientists at the Max Plank Institute for Human Cognitive and Brain Science: Using fMRI researchers scanned the brains of participants while they could freely choose if they wanted to press a button with their right hand or their left hand.
By monitoring the micro patterns in the frontopolar cortex, the researchers could predict which hand the participant would choose 7 SECONDS before the participant was even aware of the decision he would make. The study's co- author, John-Dylan Haynes stated, "Your decisions are strongly prepared by the brain activity. By the time consciousness kicks in, most of the work has already been done."

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"There are some ideas so wrong that only a very intelligent person could believe in them"
George Orwell

AA,

In a Virtual Reality, this is meaningless. I do not consider our free will to exist on other than the basis of Tom's description of how it arises within Consciousness Space as our IUOCs have absolute free will to interact over the RWW. The brain is a simulation within the VR simulation and has no existence unless it is being forced to be observable in some way, whether a club to the head or an fMRI. Our IUOC as our minds is primary and the brain is secondary.

Have you ever read about Suzanne Segal and her experience of losing her conscious stream of thoughts. Or how I have describe this experience myself on the BB, but without her panic? You do things unconsciously or you can do them faster than conscious thoughts if you for instance practice martial arts and are not a rank beginner. But that does not mean that you, as you really exist as an IUOC, do not in fact do them with free will.

Ted

I think what AA is describing is the signature of a VR, this is the video lag Tom talks about in detail in some of his lectures that would explain that. Dean Radin talks about his similar experiments but really gives no logical answers as to why this is happening. The slow chemical electrical physical bodies in PMR. have to be fluid without lag to make this a good learning lab, Tom does explain in detail how and why this happens. I suspect people with objective beliefs in reality just can not get there minds around this. But in my view for MBT to be valid freewill is necessary, i do not think i have ever doubted freewill to me it just seems like nonsense to do so, due to my experiences. Sabby

I think I follow you. I'll try and phrase it simply and then maybe let me know if I've missed your point. There is me, the IUOC, with free will. I can instigate an action in this VR from a level way above conscious thought. That instigation triggers a brain signal, then a conscious thought, then the action.

If you were part of this experiment they would still record a brain signal and be able to predict your action 7 seconds in advance but you would not have had the conscious thought after the brain signal, you would just have experienced the IUOC instigation before the brain signal.

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"There are some ideas so wrong that only a very intelligent person could believe in them"
George Orwell

Agreed :-)




This is probably a bit lazy of me but do you have a link for this?

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"There are some ideas so wrong that only a very intelligent person could believe in them"
George Orwell

AA, the same applies as to the other topic of freewill. Sabby

AA,

brain reflects mind and consciousness 'actions'/decisions/free will choices. Brain represents FWUC's VR PMR constrains. Each person has his/her personal constrains according to personal QoC, level of awareness, VR body and brain physical structure, open-mindness, skepticism, beliefs and etc. It seems that this experiment shows brain's ability to produce electrical signal at the time when mind/consciousness makes a free will decision to act this or that way. It makes perfect sense to me, and reminds of a QM double slit experiment.

Consciousness/free will choice = QM experiment/fired electron
Consciousness/decision made and in 7 seconds an electro encelograph records brain electrical signal = QM/wall detector records an electron.

This result follows PMR rule set, and it doesn't prove anything, but a presence of electrical signal in brain before hand pushes a button. It is well known, that brain and body electrical signals could be detected and recorded. Recording itself doesn't change anything. Scientists keep knocking on the same closed door time and again. If scientists would be open minded enough, they would not be attached to a small picture - PMR view of this VR. As long as science can't see the forest for the trees it cannot discover free will. Free will cannot be recorded on an electrograph, because this is beyond PMR rule set constrains.

Consciousness leads and brain/body follows.

Lena

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'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.

There is you, the IUOC, that squeezes off ;) a bit called a Free Will Awareness Unit (FWAU) with free will. I think the IUOC also has free will too though. This is fractally.
Love
Bette

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All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

AA-

What that experiment certaintly does not prove is that consciousness is an afterthought so to speak. According to an article I read once, the results of that experiments could be the brain "ramping up", preparing for movement.

But they seemed to be able to accurately predict that movement from the 'ramping up' 7 seconds before the people thought they had even made the choice.

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"There are some ideas so wrong that only a very intelligent person could believe in them"
George Orwell