I think I may be close to a personal breakthrough concerning fear, specifically relating to ideas and perceptions about control.

Existentially, I have spent the last several years terrified. A thousand what-ifs, almost all of them nightmare scenarios (from the ego's view, at least) about loss of individuality/identity - the ultimate end of the soul's journey being to fade back into Nothingness with no existence to speak of (not necessarily a result of physical death, but the eventual "end game" of existence period). I even considered that perhaps the Aperture that Monroe spoke of, with all the beings awaiting to pass through it and none knowing what lay beyond it, represented true death, and beyond that point was the Nonexistence from which Existence springs. Basically, everything boiled down to a fear of loss of Awareness, of existence period; and this final loss of existence (system-wide) renders all experience ultimately meaningless.

Recently, I have been trying to get myself to accept that all of the above is what's actually meaningless. The fundamental nature of Reality is not something I have any control over. Whether or not my consciousness will evaporate (regardless of my actions/intent) is not something I can change. IF that is the nature of existence, then that is what is, and fearing what may be will only lead to suffering and ignorance. Acceptance of what is even if what is sucks horribly (again, from an egoic view) is the only rational thing to do. Only from acceptance of what is can you build an accurate model for decision making. Constantly creating possible scenarios of what might be via thought experiment is not useful. At least not beyond the point that it reveals the existential fear that needs to be addressed.

Granted, none of this addresses what actually IS, only the way of approaching it. There is no rational reason to fear anything that exists outside of my decision space. Whether my ultimate destiny is annihilation or eternal growth, individuation or conformity/identity loss, it is what it is, and the only thing that remains is to find out what exactly Is (to the best of my ability), and accept it (again, to the best of my ability).

I am hoping this rationalization against fear will help me in my growth, and perhaps crack the doors into NPMR open a little wider. Do you think my rationalization is sound?

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I am, because I choose to am! Wait, I mean be. I AM BE!! Wait, that's not it either... ;_;

Hey Ouroborus,

I went through this myself a few years back and I have posted below my findings regarding this topic.

Non-existence is an impossibility.
Who could experience non-existence?
For something to exist it has to experiential, no experiencer, no experience.
If someone was to experience non-existence they would have to exist which therefore would render the "non-existence" null and void.

Allow the fear you have around this subject to be there without reacting to it.
My understanding of surrender is that you let go of resisting, it's your resistance to the fear that keeps it going.
Allow it to be there, even welcome it, it will dissapate on it's own and literally runs out.

I hope the above makes some sense and you can find it useful.

Regards, Jake.

Hi Jake,
That sounds like sound advice. Welcome to Tom's MBT discussion forums.
Love to you and yours,
Bette

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All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Hi Ouroboros,

This is my understanding.

Future thoughts give food to fear. The key is to starve the fear of these future thoughts.
Fictitious scenarios are the constant work of the ego as it tries to make itself seem more special by separating itself from everything else. It's a way of protecting itself from annihilation.
Thus Surrender is simply accepting 'what is' .

Eckhart Tolle Quote : Unease, anxiety, tension, stress, worry — all forms of fear — are cause by too much future, and not enough presence. Guilt, regret, resentment, grievances, sadness, bitterness, and all forms of non-forgiveness are caused by too much past, and not enough presence.


The more one becomes Present the more 'power' one has in PMR as well as NPMR.


Peter

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"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know." - Tao Te Ching

Excellent post Peter

if you understand those statements, fear has nothing left to stand on after it is observed and exposed for what it is

Perhaps I don't understand this then because "what is" isn't "what is good", and I can't accept that and surrender to it. I'm having issues at school, again, because I can't conform because being able to conform to a broken system isn't useful, right?
Love
bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Ouroboros et al,

You might consider reading the following thread in which Tom discussed the three paths of Knowledge (or the Warrior), of Surrender and of Service. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3247&hilit=surrender&start=0

Tom discusses the three paths briefly and references their discussion in MBT. He also comments on the continuing discussion among several forum members. Here are Tom's opening comments, quoted from this thread:

"In Book 2 Chapter 13 in the middle of a long aside, I outline three approaches.
1) The Path of Knowledge --often called the "warrior's path"
2) The Path of Service
3) The Path of Surrender

I have taken Path 1 because it suits me best, but paths 2 and 3 are equally valid and will take you to the same place. Both 2 and 3 may be seen as gentler than 1, with 3 being the gentlest of all - but all require courage and letting go of fear just the same. Only 1 requires an eyeball to eyeball confrontation with ones fears. It is not an either-or choice, one can mix and match to suit ones personality and circumstances -- all are compatible and work together."

This thread is very pertinent to what is being discussed here in this thread.

Ted

Hi Ouroboros

I can somewhat relate to what you are saying, and I think you rationalization is sound.

You can also think about this way:

If the "end game" of existence is possible, it will happen in an unimaginable long time from now.
In an unimaginable long time from now, you will most likely have evolved to beyond comparison from now.
In that time, your understanding and knowledge of this possibility is many folds greater than it is now, from the tiny perspective of the human PMR life.
Then rather speculate of this when you are at that point in evolution, and not worry now and have a not needed fear.
But when you are at that point, this question you have now will be trivial and pointless, as the question is based on the viewpoint from the little picture human life.

So essentially, the problem does not really exist.

Hi Ouroboros,

I second all the above replies, and I think anyway you'd pretty much rationalized it perfectly yourself already.

By an amazing coincidence (or was it?) these exact same thoughts were going through my head as I showered this morning, before I'd read this thread, so to read this here now quite astonishes me. I was recalling a post way back, where someone said that MBT was of no comfort at all to them, for these very same reasons (loss of our current PMR identity - maybe it was the one Ted linked to perhaps), and I went through a train of thinking - why should I worry about something I couldn't change anyway - the system is as it is, and who am I to judge/fear it from my current limited perspective; and then the most comforting thought of all: anything that the system has come up with, through the perfecting process of evolution, can only be good, as that's the way it works, the 'bad' (= unproductive) is discarded. So, why fear what evolution has perfected?

Arthur

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"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."

I'm going to say Surrender doesn't seem to be my path at all (nor to conform), and be happy with that knowledge. I suppose a "well balanced" conscious being might have some of all three paths, and maybe they do, just not all at the same time.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

I like to follow the 3 paths simultaneously. I get to know someone I am interested (a beautiful woman), I service (being a gentleman), and I surrender to her love ... nice.

Clau

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"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

Bette: Perhaps I don't understand this then because "what is" isn't "what is good", and I can't accept that and surrender to it. I'm having issues at school, again, because I can't conform because being able to conform to a broken system isn't useful, right?

OM : Bette, this is because you are dividing yourself from what is. You are creating division and conflict. You are 'it' as you know. All you need to do is be aware of that which you find "not good" feel it, taste it. However, by not accepting it, this creates opposition and thus a conflict/problem/suffering.
When you take this perspective then you are - 'of the world and not just in the world' (you are part of the stream)

But when you can 'see it' just Be aware of it, accept it for what it is, no fear, no judging, no opposition (the seeing is the doing) and then you change your perspective - 'to be in the world but not of the world' (looking and acting from outside the stream, a unique being)

Bette: I'm going to say Surrender doesn't seem to be my path at all (nor to conform), and be happy with that knowledge. I suppose a "well balanced" conscious being might have some of all three paths, and maybe they do, just not all at the same time.

OM : Surrender is just a word. Just be aware of what is, the good and the bad. There really is no good or bad as you know at an absolute level. In order to be a warrior you have to accept all paths at an even deeper level than the "surrender" path would imply. I find you to be funny, delightful and intelligent with a touch of OCD : )
Accept all that is, whatever it is, truly, at the being level and you will become a warrior.

OM

When one accepts something for what it is, and it is harming others, or even self, how can one change that thing? I mean, that which is, is, has been my mantra since I read The Dancing Wu Lu Master, but that which is is a reflection of the level of Consciousness evolution in this PMR. I can accept things are screwed up, now let's see what we can work on changing, like that?
Thank you for the kinds words OM, Mike.
Love to you and yours,
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

buuuuuuut.....ego maybe something at first hand you need to discourage because of its effects of limiting your growth, but what would we call the other part of the ego/fear as I believe it is responsible helping you become creative, I mean that in the sense we learn to want something because of our fears. ok what im trying to say is, there are two points of us being, high entropy, low entropy, but where do we stand in regards to function as experincing beings. Tolle goes on about apreciating the silence and the moment, I understand that but it sure does get boring!!

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....'we were on the edge of the desert, 100 miles from Barstow, when the drugs began to take hold'...HST

harveyshideout : buuuuuuut.....ego maybe something at first hand you need to discourage because of its effects of limiting your growth, but what would we call the other part of the ego/fear as I believe it is responsible helping you become creative, I mean that in the sense we learn to want something because of our fears. ok what im trying to say is, there are two points of us being, high entropy, low entropy, but where do we stand in regards to function as experincing beings. Tolle goes on about apreciating the silence and the moment, I understand that but it sure does get boring!!


OM : It's not boring, let me expand on where I am coming from.
This is perspective that I have understood from a combination of Tom and Krishnamurti. Basically, Knowledge, if used improperly is a detriment to us in our interactions, Sounds simple and obvious?
What I mean by this is, that knowledge is mechanical, it is what we have experienced, (the past). Obviously, In order to function in this world we need to learn certain things. We need knowledge to drive a car, fly an airplane, learn a language, brush your teeth, practical knowledge. However, we walk through life gaining, seeing, listening and then mostly interacting through knowledge alone, culturally, socially, individually, etc and we have this big steaming pile of knowledge (whether on paper (MBA etc) or in general)

A simple crude example;
You were a jerk last month to me. You were a Jerk last year to me.
You stand in front of me today and I access my knowledge, I am ready for the jerk. I am using the past to judge you.
An argument to this might be; well, I have to use my knowledge to protect myself. That's just fear and ego pre-judging and causing unnecessary conflict because your instinctual center is there for a reason, To protect you under fire. If you are in trouble it will be there before you even can think intellectually. Or as you mentioned that fear/ego can help you get things and be creative. Possibly, but in a very limiting and problematic way.

So then, what do we do instead to function as experiencing beings?
Listen and see through silence, that is real attention or real meditation. In the silence you don't want, you don't judge etc. If I observe you in silence without knowledge, you are not a jerk. I will react to what you are in that moment instead (maybe you will still be a jerk). This approach completely changes the interaction, my entropy and yours.

If Seeing and listening mechanically through knowledge (past) alone, then nothing is new. There is no creativity. But if we can combine these; observe out of silence, act from the being level and in the field of knowledge at the same time, then you are interacting uniquely. It's new every time.
The description is no longer the described - J. Krishnamurti

I had asked Tom a question a while ago regarding some very interesting intuitive responses that I had regarding different things.
I asked, "Tom, I wonder, wouldn't it be more advantageous to have this knowledge consciously beforehand"

TC : "No. Why would you want to take a high signal-to-noise link direct from the source and change it to be a noisy problematical signal that must pass through the extremely limited intellect first before it gets to you? Again: inquiring egos want to know"

When I had these responses I was being silent (full attention with all my being) in my listening, seeing etc during my interactions. The result came from a better source than Ego/fear or intellect. When engaging with ego you use past knowledge and in effect lose potential creative ability because you are drawing from a limiting source.


Bette : When one accepts something for what it is, and it is harming others, or even self, how can one change that thing? I mean, that which is, is, has been my mantra since I read The Dancing Wu Lu Master, but that which is is a reflection of the level of Consciousness evolution in this PMR. I can accept things are screwed up, now let's see what we can work on changing, like that?
Thank you for the kinds words OM, Mike.
Love to you and yours,
Bette

OM : Sort of, but I don't think this is something you can actually work on changing per se with knowledge because it will become a continuation of the past and an endless pattern of cause and effect.
We can be silent, observe it as screwed up, accept it as screwed up, then interact from your being with new eyes and without past knowledge. As Jesus said, you must become like a child again. Maybe then, creativity can blossom to solve all these things....