Will,
For some reason this all makes me think of synesthesia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia, in a different way. What if this phenomena, synesthesia, is this objective thing (the granularity) being interpreted by those experiencing it as useful data (numbers, calculate-able usually) rather than just dots and shifting patterns? We are data swimming in an ocean of data.
Love
Bette

edit: Will, go check out this blog of TobyH's (if you chose to), the very last entry made me think of this thread. http://openmindedskepticism.blogspot.com/

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Wrong again Ted. Re-read the post. No trouble grasping what you're talking about, wasn't saying sight dots are individual reality cells. I could go into it again but it almost seems as if you either don't read carefully or don't understand what I write. As a base though, realize that I fully understand all the concepts in MBT in a basic sense. Let me make that clear. Go from there. I understand that its saying pmr is a virtual reality, that can easily be set up by digital information, which are those this and thats I was talking about in the last post. Understand your "orders of reality" idea till I'm blue in the face. Understood all this months, years ago, before MBT. Your replies to what I write will be more cogent and relevant if you just keep in mind that I've been over various iterations and permutations of these ideas many many times in many different systems, writings, and so on, including now MBT.

One order of reality below pmr could maybe be the dream state. one order above NPMR or this Indra's net or whatever. what I was talking about in the post was something much more fundamental. If you have any interest just re-read it, all you need to understand it is there.

Will

p.s. Could it be that maybe you're too overworked, reading too many posts and in some kind of burn out?

Nevermind this post- I reread... I missed something the first time...

:) sorry about that.

-cole

_________________
Never live so certainly as to confuse your own convictions with what is true.

Will,

To quote from your post and the specific part to which I replied:
"If you look closely at what these reality cells must be they are some "subjective' experience AUO was having. They were not little "things" little space time granules in a literal sense that AUO somehow began churning out. They had to be experiential states. AUO having the (you could say mental or abstract or "subjective") experience of being this, then of being that. Then this - this - that. Then This - that - this. Then this - that - that - this. Then this-that-this-that. And so on."

If you are not talking about reality cells when you say 'reality cells' and misunderstanding their function and place in Tom's model of reality as expressed in MBT as you write about them in this paragraph, then you are certainly right about one thing: I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Jibberish!

To quote you further from that same post:
"There is no objectivity just total subjectivity. Or you could as easily say; there is no subjectivity just total objectivity. There's just jectivity. THE ONE, the being is exact and it's the one in control, not really the evolving data assemblage known as "you" as an iuoc. But in a certain deep way yes, it's you."

Are you going to say that this melange of contradictory statements has some deep meaning and that making up words, jectivity, contributes to others understanding of this? I even tried to look this up on the internet in case it had a meaning that I was not aware of. It is unclear if this is a word fragment however as the first five links give .PDF downloads that are not openable and the short extracts shown by the search engine make them appear to be word fragments.

You may jabber away as you wish and if others believe you are expressing some meaning, deep or otherwise, perhaps someone who is a better communicator, able to convert it to comprehensible English, can explain it to me later. If you do not see value in clear and comprehensible communications, then enjoy it amongst yourselves. Chacun à son goût! I had actually gotten the impression that you were making an attempt to communicate rationally. Apparently I was in error. I say this as one who has made their way through Zen Buddhism and Existentialism with some degree of comprehension plus passing the foreign language requirements for a Ph. D. You might save me trouble if you would keep these excursions into stream of consciousness performances or speaking in tongues, as may be, in the Wud I say forum. If you are attempting to set up some kind of model of reality in opposition to or contradictory to Tom, you can definitely move it to Wud I say and eventually, on down the road to your own site. But if you can get a significant group of others on the same page with you, you must all be smoking some 'really good shit'.

Ted

Hi Will:

I agree with Ted in that those dots are not reality cells. I practice what you are talking about here, so I can tell you things from my experience. Bette mentioned a link to a thread I named called Mental Visualizations. I am not going to focus in the PMR aspects, and like in the other thread I am looking for people here that would like to explore this particular NPMR access through mental visualizations. You seem to have the potential to expand your NPMR awareness and I hope you can do it and experience things like I do (all experiences are different and each IUOC experience differently).

Last night I started getting fully in NPMR in a different way. I was intense in visualizations, very dynamic, very beautiful, full of motion, unbelievable creative. Let me stop here a little bit. It is unbelievable how I can generate creativity. Either my HS is super creative or I hook up to CS creative data streams (or probably both since they are connected) because I access creativity that is beyond my control and imagination. I am also able now to just think "more beautiful" and the creativity becomes more beautiful with multimedia variations.

I started a change to fully NPMR last night by changing from this state of fully conscious dream/imagination control to fully NPMR state after I detected some nice beings. There were like 3 little angels that I immediately knew that they were very in control of data streams and NPMR in general. I tuned to their vibrations and I received immense pleasure and got to a fully NPMR state with lots of pleasure. I then tried to parallel process and I detected my breathing and also opened a separate stream (like a screen) that I was able to neatly see information organized in symbols. I was aware of 3 states at the same time (my breathing, slight body awareness, NPMR and the separate screen). Guys, consciousness is limited only by you.

So Will, if you believe in that you can achieve always more, go for it, and you don't need any drugs to block your PMR awareness to achieve it. Ask me questions, but I would like you and anybody to explore this type of NPMR access. I like it because I find it one of my paths to less resistance to NPMR access. I can achieve these visualizations now in about 5 to 10 seconds. I was practicing on my vacation. I am also thankful that my body awareness and PMR to NPMR transitions are getting so smooth.

Later,

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

Let me first get the one "correction" out of the way: It was me who just got done saying that the sight dots weren't reality cells. Ted also said that they weren't after thinking (apparently) that I had said they were. In fact neither me or he said they were. I only made some points about original "experiential" or "subjective" or even if you like "mental" or "virtual" or again even "abstract" nature of reality cells as MBT describes them. And that thus these EXPERIENCE SHIFTS (state changes) are what all reality, including of course sight dots, are ultimately composed of. An interesting question might be about the relation of sight dots or atomic scale quanta, or any granularity, any "bits" you either perceive or measure or in some way detect, to the idea of these original state changes. Tricky I know but interesting. Far from "all settled," by MBT or anything else. Open book open mind.

That stuff about about experiences was really interesting Claudio. When you you say you get in touch with NPMR do you mean you have actual out of body type experiences? I really would like to kinda get some stuff going with experiential stuff like that - if you have any pointers that'd be cool. Maybe we could suggest some experiments (playing with data streams, yeah that's kinda the way I'm beginning to see all this too) and you and me, or you, me and some other people could try them and all report our results.

let's kick it off with: could you give a kind of step by step account of how you got into those "data streams" you mention in the post? I must admit, in ordinary meditation I don't usually feel like I'm "seeing other worlds" or info sets in a really definitve way. My avenue for that is more lucid dreaming and also the hypnagogic state.

Ted, I donno what to say any more. You're my buddy though. We can communicate but since others have complained about your responses may it's something you should look at. Maybe you're not as low entropy as you assume. More on this later I gotta roll.

Will

Hi Will:




Fully NPMR is kinda saying OBE, but I say it from another point of view. I follow more the Tom approach than the classical, since it makes more sense. I feel comfortable and kind of "at home" when feeling fully in NPMR. It's all about focus. You then realize that you are not a body and you don't feel "out of the body". You just feel you are, you feel what you are. You are consciousness. OBE becomes easier when you incorporate that way of feeling or being. The body is just an interface, a virtual interface to a virtual reality.

Don't try to put everything in a specific place. You experienced seeing those dots. Don't assume it is "that way" for everybody. You are just getting "tuned" to NPMR, to certain NPMR frequencies, information. The way you access information in NPMR can be weird but natural at the same time. Don't think everything has to be in a certain way for everybody. You can become and get mixed with the surrounding information you experience. It all depends on how open you feel to the realities you can experience. If you relax and let yourself just "be", it is easier, it comes more natural. I don't really know exactly how the information gets to me, I just receive it. I can generalize it with what I call "tuning", but I can have a way of tuning that is not as precise as let's say Tom's way of tuning. I tune to information "my way", I think I can improve and manipulate it in a better, more precise noise free way, and I am getting there but all of this goes with practice, with time.

My advice, keep playing with your imagination. I liked what you tried about the horizontals and the verticals, practice whatever you imagine. If you feel lost or fear, slow down. That doesn't happen to me but I cannot generalize. I think it is easier if you ask me specific questions, because there is not just one unique way. Tom seems to be able to just get to the void in a few seconds and then tuned to whatever. For me I cannot get to the void so fast. I get to the visualizations first fast and then play with them and relax and wait to get slowly but surely immerse in that reality till I then know I lost track of PMR. It is kinda like a self-hypnosis. Once I am in that state I then try to get control of the situation, do a check of my body awareness (usually, just the breathing is enough), I might then ignore the breathing, but I like to practice the control, because then I feel better, that I am in control, it's like checking the airplane instruments readings before taking off (even though in this case you already took off).

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

Well do you, say, have conversations with beings there in npmr? I know these tend to be just "foci" - changes of focus. like the people in those "explorer" series conversations don't seem to be really "gone" from the room and even Robert Monroe is able to feel the blanket slip off or whatever when he's way out there.

As far as other people - I'm sure they all do see sight dots. They may focus on them more or less. That's kind of what interests me about that. If everybody really looked, they'd see those swirling dots and patterns. There's even a fair amount of literature on that on the web. The lights and things you see are known as phosphenes.

Anyway I guess I'll try some stuff myself or suggest experiemnts. I venture that the "set up" of the experiemnt, the tuning in methodology, plays some important part in the outcome. I really haven't put too much effort toward tuning in other data streams though I have been meditating a long time. It seems more like tuning in with my "inner self" etc.

There are, of course, interesting possibilities for experimentation here, even some form of group experimentation. But it seems this, like any message board, can get kinda blah blah blah, a little scattered, info proliferations, etc. Could be, if focused, a good home base for group experiments of not only an individual but collective nature though.


Will

"If you are attempting to set up some kind of model of reality in opposition to or contradictory to Tom, you can definitely move it to Wud I say and eventually, on down the road to your own site. But if you can get a significant group of others on the same page with you, you must all be smoking some 'really good shit'."

Ted

Aside from that being funny Ted I must point out, genuinely for your growth, that this is a perfect example of the kind of defensiveness, ego tendencies, and high entropy I and others are talking about with regard to your posts. It basically says: "Do not contradict the reality interpretation of guru Tom on the premises! If you do then you must split off, factionalize, become another denomination. And we will say that your opposing system is invalid."

Hell, maybe we can start some more holy wars, complete with car bombs, ideological idiot-ferver, and dead civilians. Or some academic rivalries with tenured MBT professors losing jobs for mentioning the word "jective." hehehe.

You see, all that's fragmentation level stuff. Non holistic. Information wants to communicate, complete, come into coherence. It just does. It doesn't matter if you're tempted the other way. We're not USED to thinking this way. Really we aren't. You may even think you get it but still slip into a habit of the old fragmentation system.

Just as an example, I'll see what's positive in your message. As I will soon show in new posts, positive energy and holism are inextricably combined. The end of problems. So your message: It was funny. It told me I should try to be clearer with terms. let's see, what else... I donno, stuff like that.

I'm tempted to bulldoze too. Everybody is. Really we don't quite UNDERSTAND this type of thought yet. Holism means something like that we're the same being, arguing with itself. It's too WEIRD for us to understand. It's missed, forgotten in a minute in the stampede for individuation.

Individuation is not necessarily wrong. Parts in interplay are cool. Even fun competition (i.e. sports) are cool. Are wars cool? some think so. Until their family is lying there with 3rd degree burns and dead.

We are parts in interplay. But which DIRECTION are we going? toward holism recognition? or toward fragmentation belief?

factionalization-compartmentalization-fragmentation-separation-illusion-delusion-familiar/habituated-decoherence (in a certain way wave collapse)-incoherence-hostility-unaware

oneness-holism-connection-coherence-reality-unfamiliar (thus like I say holistic thinking is non-habitual/weird)- integration-love-aware

READ THE ABOVE SLOWLY. Now think of those two sets as being extremes, TOWARD the beginning and TOWARD the end, of a gradient. I will soon introduce a "holism gradient" concept that is very simple and self-evident and may prove useful.

One main thing to realize is there is way MORE in the holism-cooperation direction than anybody in their current state realizes. It's way more interesting.

Will

p.s. if you're still mad you won't understand this.

another thought: set it up holistically and see what happens. Meantime just take attention off the usual habituated ego payoff habits. It's pretty easy actually, just gotta get the hang of it. I donno what's gonna happen and its not what you think or currently believe.

The old ignorance systems are goin down man. Get out of them.

Will,

Have you listened to any of Bob Dylan's music from the 60's? You make me think of the line that went something like this: "Something is happening but you don't know what it is. Do you, Mr. Jones?" I believe that I have a better understanding of the way in which we as IUOCs are integral parts of the Whole of Reality and The One Consciousness that you do. If I remember your approximate age correctly, I was reading and seeking understanding of mysticism where all of this understanding begins well before you were born. If I had been mad at you for crossing the line, you would have not posted your latest nor need there be any sign of your presence remaining here. I do not however have your apparent great love for incoherence in the art of communication. Heed what I have told you as this is not an ego based pissing match from my end. Die Gedanken sind frei.

Ted

Will, I think you have a tendency to think that things have to be only in a certain way. You can have "conversations" like in PMR but it is more common to know instantaneously when in contact with another being, then if you want more details about something you also get instantaneous answers. It can be weird and they don't come in one flavor. You can have strawberry, bananas, tutti fruti or a whole fruit salad and whole feelings or stories can come like in a movie, it can be like a weird multimedia information swimming experience.

Your body or PMR awareness can be tuned, you can feel more or less, depending on how much you tuned to it.



What I posted is not originated by physics from PMR. I am talking about mental (consciousness) creations, but you can start from physically induced dots and turned to mental dots, but you don't need physical stimuli to start them. You may have combined them in the experiences you talked about. If you cannot get a good dark room to practice cover your eyes with something.



That would be nice if you can write down a plan before you experiment. When you close your eyes stay for a while and try to imagine things. For me it was always easy to start with nature related objects (plants, trees, water, mountains, rocks, skies, clouds, etc.). You can also try just circles and play with circles, or squares, or dots, whatever. Eventually one day you may notice something different. Then get happy and you may find out more and more. It's like you start with one channel and then you use your remote control and find out more new channels. Good thing they don't charge for those extra channels :)



Well, I suggest everybody to try for themselves, but we can help each other with questions or how to get out of certain things that keep us stuck and not moving forward. Take into account though that if you discovered orange trees that does not mean everybody that don't see orange trees don't see them because they can't. It's just one channel you access and the channels seem infinite.

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

Hmm... :'(

Ever heard the song by Foo Fighters that goes something like, "There goes my hero... watch him as he goes..."

_________________
Never live so certainly as to confuse your own convictions with what is true.

I might be tuning somewhere else. I don't understand what's going on here. Isn't this thread about sight dots? How this dualism hollistic thingy can affect the sight dots?

One thing I can say to you Ted, that since I think you understand the meaning of One Consciousness I know you also understand that Will dualisms, dots, imagination, word constructions, learning, experimentations, expressions, etc. are also part of the One Consciousness.

I hit this weird equation to some peace and construction:

1 + 1 + .... + 1 + ... = One

I am trying to channel haitians. They are suffering. I have friends that lost a lot of family members. Some are wondering if their loved ones are still alive or not:

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/science_technology/twitter+search+for+haiti+survivors/3503342

People can help by going to http://www.redcross.org/en/ I am going to help at the Miami airport on Sunday.

Peace and love.

Clau

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

Came by this pdf. and thought of this thread. I consider it a probable useful add-on for in depht readers of this thread, regarding scientific 'take' on sight/seeing. Author David Eagleman also have extensive work on synesthesia, which Bette brought up. http://neuro.bcm.edu/eagleman/papers/Ea ... usions.pdf I enjoyed scrolling through it. lol

-kristian

Far be it from me to tell anyone what to think, but Cole, I don't think that Ted wants to be anyone's hero in the "superhero" or "god" type sense. Perhaps he would like to be a champion for other, he is in fact a champion for other, several others. His other in this case is MBT, in my opinion. He champions MBT because he has made a free will decision to do so. He does know more about the way IUOC are intregal parts of the Whole of Reality and The One Consciousness than Will does, than you do, than I do, than anyone except for Tom. Additionally Ted said believe.

"OH OUR AUM, are you fricking kidding me, you fricking believe that you have more knowledge about this particular model being discussed here, you said THAT!" (bette acting like someone freaking out). Come on Cole, you believe that you are losing a hero because Ted honestly said, hey, I'm an expert on MBT, and this is how your idea is different. I find it refreshing in a reality where no one is willing to give a definitive answer, like academia. Harmonize.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.