Does anyone know whether Tom talked about Chaos Theory in relation to TOE? Or he never talked about it, maybe partly because from what I understand, Chaos Theory assumes objective reality whereas TOE does not?

I haven't heard Tom mention Chaos Theory specifically, but he has mentioned some things that align with it.

Frequently Tom has said things like "our reality is probabilistic and statistical", to be "graceful with uncertainty", and has gone on to describe quantum mechanics, future probably databases, and other things which are all based on probability. You can't even measure a brick without error bars, right?

I'm not an expert on Chaos Theory, but from what I understand is that it basically states that there are deterministic systems whose results are not predictable. This is due to the inherent uncertainty (error bars) in the initial conditions. There doesn't even need to be any randomness injected into the system. That just speaks to the quotes I wrote above. Our reality is only approximately objective and chaotic systems are just another example as to why.

Personally, I think the Larger Consciousness System works a lot like a chaotic system and is where "true" randomness comes from. You can have a very structured, low entropy, ordered system like the LCS... but due to its sheer size and complexity and our narrow point of view, a ton of randomness, uncertainty, and opportunities for free will decisions to be made.

I don't see how Chaos Theory assumes objectivity, but perhaps it is the typical scientific belief of objective reality that gets overlaid on top of Chaos Theory? To me, it just further shows why reality isn't objective. You can't even measure a simple brick objectively (due to error bars), and Chaos Theory goes "See what those little error bars can do? A butterfly can flap his/her wings and it can cause a hurricane".

_________________
Mike

Hi tamakat and welcome to Tom's MBT discussion forums.
Love to you and yours,
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

I would explain what you are talking about as existing at multiple levels in terms of Tom's model of reality. At the realty cell level, everything is deterministic. There is a deterministic rule set that governs the interaction of data within reality cells. Then there is the entry of free will at a meta reality level that results in the consciousness of AUM. Then there is an additional meta reality level in which our PMR VR exists with a new element of free will for ourselves as IUOCs participating in that Virtual Reality. I am skipping over the meta reality level which results in our free will and consciousness within NPMR as IUOCs also as not entering into this precise discussion.

Then there is the way that our PMR VR is calculated fundamentally by The Big Computer which is based upon probabilistic calculations at multiple fractal levels. Then there is the more linear way that the rule set works at the level at which our normal experience is rendered. Then there is the very large scale system level at which Chaos Theory enters into the rule set as very large and very complex systems, such as the weather pattern for the Earth, where there can be a great deal of non linearity. Thus symbolically comes the phrase of the fluttering of a butterfly's wings resulting in a hurricane.

Sorry to make this so complex with all of these levels referred to but the situation is complex. I am just trying to provide perspective so that you can see where Chaos Theory comes in. It is not part of Tom's model as described in MBT. It is purely a matter of how the PMR rule set can work out for large and complex systems which can present behavior which is quite non linear. This also enters into our PMR reality in the way that it is thought that past transitions were made from an interglacial period into a developing glaciation in just a relatively few years because of the non linearity of the very complex climatic system with the details of the energy budget of the earth and interactions between the land, the atmosphere and the oceans with the major ocean currents making up the so called, ocean conveyor belt for energy, interchanging heat to moderate the climate of Europe in one mode and permitting the arctic to rapidly freeze up and Europe's climate to cool in another mode of operation. Science does not understand this at the level to predict what will happen as yet because of the complexity and non linearity of the system.

Ted

Ted,

What do you think of the idea that the deterministic reality cells can exhibit characteristics of chaos theory since the LCS is a large and complex system that is also probably not that linear?

I know that chaos is typically referred to for our PMR rule-set, but perhaps it could be applied to other levels as a fractal process. It would be similar to the metaphor Tom uses when describing AUO's humble beginnings, like a one cell bioloical organism evolving/splitting into two.

_________________
Mike

Mike,

I don't know enough about Chaos Theory as it is developed here in PMR to say whether it is related to what clearly did happen in the development of the LCS or not or whether it is just what is referred to as emergent complexity and self organization of large and complex systems, these concepts arising from PMR pure mathematics. This refers to how the LCS functions like a Cellular Automaton. Within a CA, when you get to very large ones, everything is very local in the sense that 'communication' occurs over straight line courses. If you watch the performance of CAs on a computer screen, various 'sprites' perambulate along in straight lines. So called, 'guns' shoot smaller sprites which again travel in straight lines. Eventually because of data density in the reality cells, those sprites must run into something and interact. So this potential way of transmitting 'data' is strictly local as you can't travel far in any direction without 'running into' other data structures and interacting.

What clearly happened within the LCS was, as described in Tom's model on the Wiki, a transition in organization must have occurred that permitted all of the LCS to change in such a way that communication could occur on a 'global' basis instead of just locally. This means that what I call proto IUOCs had to develop that were essentially self contained with some kind of barrier arrangement around most of their periphery so that local data could not interact with them except at localized and controlled areas. The area between these sprites then became a communication pathway. Think of the pattern on a giraffe's hide. This kind of organization must have then spread throughout all of the LCS in a short time, relatively speaking, and we went from strictly local communication lines to potentially global communication. We had local sprites interacting and killing each other off and then went to stable areas that could 'communicate' with other areas over a communication buss. And 'Shazam', we suddenly have proto IUOCs and the proto Reality Wide Web. Suddenly, at least in theory, any part of the LCS could communicate with any other part of the LCS. There was a lot of development yet to occur, but the results say that it did in fact happen.

This can all be explained on the basis of emergent complexity and self organization as observed by PMR mathematics and in other large and complex PMR systems such as the Internet and the arrangement of biological systems. There is a sudden and non linear transition from one 'organizational structure' and another organizational structure that has new characteristics and behavior that is significantly different and probably more efficient and improved. Whether you relate this to Chaos Theory or not, I do not know, not really knowing enough about Chaos Theory to state that it is so. It certainly amounts to a non linear transition within a large and very complex system so that with this superficial description, we could certainly be in essence talking Chaos Theory. Perhaps I need to read up on CT and see if those references need to be added as further explanation within the Wiki write up of Tom's model. Just what I needed; more reading and work to do. So much for being retired.

Ted

Thanks a lot everyone for a greeting and a detailed explanation! I actually need to learn more about TOE (I just got the book recently!) to understand Ted's posts... but I was able to digest Mike's response! :-)

Tamara

You're welcome, and welcome to the boards. :)

Ted,

LOL! Have to keep busy somehow :p

_________________
Mike

My former mentor was into Systems Theory and used to say that when a System was in a chaotic state it was permeable and therefore open to something new coming into it then.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

So all dynamic/open systems are permeable therefore hard to define in absolute terms? They sort of exist conventionally (using buddhist term), not intrinsically...

Tamara

Tamara,

I have been trying to read up on Chaos Theory of which I believe I read one book some time ago. Long ago in a galaxy far away. I keep getting interrupted however. It is unclear as to details in what I have been reviewing but there are aspects of Chaos Theory related clearly to fractals (a link to Tom's model) as an iterated/repeated result of a simple rule set (and thus tied to Cellular Automata and the core nature of the LCS). Mandelbrot, of fractal studies, is also an important figure within Chaos Theory. Chaos Theory has led to a property known as self-organized criticality (SOC) which appears to be another way of referring to emergent complexity and self organization as has already been referred to in the write up of Tom's model on the Wiki. Quoting from a Wikipedia article:Chaos theory, as in much of pure mathematics, develops as individual mathematicians come up with new insights and publish papers. These create or stimulate new thinking within the minds of other mathematicians. It is difficult to work your way through this mass of material as the concepts are being developed, especially if you are not a direct participant. Eventually someone will, after sufficient time has passed and the field has matured, write a book putting all of these disparate threads in perspective and creating an organized whole out of the, well, Chaos.

It does appear that one can view Chaos Theory as being involved in the development of the LCS as all of these concepts are linked together in this still developing field. The concepts of Self-Organized Criticality includes a point of view by which self organization in some systems is essentially inevitable and not critical as to particular details of the system. I am inclined to think that there is an inevitability to the development of the LCS but have not yet seen a basis to state so. Perhaps this SOC provides the needed concepts. I will attempt to dig deeper.

Ted

Ted,

I feel that I should mention that just last Friday (synchronicity!) I was suggested to watch this documentary from BBC Four called "The Secret Life of Chaos". I did indeed watch it and learned quite a bit of the high-level aspects of chaos theory, and saw a lot of alignment with MBT. It seems to pull a lot of the facets of Chaos Theory into a whole, including fractals and self-organized criticality. That is why I jumped on answering this thread and suggested that there is a link between Chaos Theory and MBT at a deeper level then it first appears.

More specifically, it speaks a lot to the Fundamental Process of Evolution as being inherent to our system (the end of the documentary even briefly mentions the possibility that this universe is a simulation), although it does not make any connection with consciousness which is unfortunate.

Here is a link showing some clips and further details: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00pv1c3 I highly recommend seeing it, it is available on Bit Torrent if you are privy to using it.


I personally find the synchronicity of these events quite intriguing.

_________________
Mike

Ted, Mike,
Thank you so much! I heard of this documentary too!
So seems like Chaos Theory doesn’t concern itself with the question of objectivity. I am a little bit confused here how to take all of this. On one hand, Tom is saying that there is nothing objective, all is information. On the other hand (like in chapter 19 of the book), he is talking about objective fact of other reality. How REAL reality is? All is information, even so-called objective reality and all self-organizing systems? I guess, this question goes beyond this particular topic/thread and most likely was already discussed elsewhere on forum?..
Thanks again!
Tamara

That can happen but it is apparently not a requirement.

_________________
Mike

Okay thanks Mike. I just throw things out hoping they will fit in someones puzzle sometimes.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.