Hello,

I'm new to the forums, and new to MBT. Unfortunately I have not read the books yet as I have little free time. I am an artificial intelligence PhD student, interested in altered states of consciousness.

I have a few questions:

1) Is there an abstract/summary written anywhere summarising the model, the main claims, findings, implications, conclusions etc. I read a lot of research papers and I am looking for something along the lines of a journal paper abstract; something concise, concrete, testable(?). I noticed there is a lot of abbreviated terminology floating around, e.g., PMRs, NPMRs, are there any documents summarising these concepts in the context of the theory as a whole?

2) There are so many theories or models of reality out there. What would you recommend I did so I could experience something for myself first-hand that would give me incentive to read the books?

3) [related to 2] does the theory make any specific predictions/claims that can be tested subjectively/inter-subjectively or objectively?

Thank you! :)

This should handy!

http://sites.google.com/site/iscatus/review-of-my-big-t

krimson,

Regarding your questions,

1) Not what you are looking for in an easy way abstract. Tom's Campbell's books, My Big TOE were written for the purpose of explaining a complex reality to ordinary people without special knowledge. There is a lot of repetition from different viewpoints that you would like to skip over. The best that I can say is to search these forums as there are shorter things said here for purposes of answering specific questions. We are gradually working towards collecting the best of these, based upon what readers find useful, as well as explanations of acronyms in the forums at the bottom of the index page for the bulletin board. However this is not complete and no one is finding sufficient time to devote to it so far. I do suggest that you look there first and then ask questions to cover loose ends.

To give you a very short summary, all that exists is Consciousness Space which is essentially digital in nature. We as individuals experiencing this reality are Individuated Units Of Consciousness (IUOCs) that are integral parts of the greater whole. This is essentially the centuries old reality of The Buddha and other metaphysicians and mystics rendered into a scientifically based model with a knowledge of physics and digital technology of the present. The System as a whole has found it useful and valuable to create virtual realities or VRs (PMR being physical matter reality where we experience existence periodically as VR beings as we are here and now and NPMR being non physical m. r. where we exist continuously) in which we can develop the quality of our consciousnesses and lower the level of entropy within our beings as 'minds'. By VRs is meant that our experience there is based upon our interpretation of an incoming data stream into our minds. VRs are not 'out there'. Everything basically falls out from this. Tom did not write on the basis of making predictions, but realized later that the anomalies of quantum mechanics and the constancy of the speed of light were inherent to the nature of the PMR VR as a reality based upon probability waves projected into the future and collapsed into actualization as a fixed occurrence by observations of IUOCs as regards QM and the propagation rate of data based upon a quantized time and distance for the VR. For simplicity on my part, I will make a later post listing some specific links to these forums on these subjects.

2) To experience it for yourself, look up and follow one of the meditation disciplines. Search around until you find one that you find compatible. There is a lot on this subject on these forums.

3) The basic claim is that there is a reality out there in 'Consciousness Space' of which you are a part and that you can experience it directly. Tom advises open minded skepticism. Check it out for yourself.

Ted

krimson,

A link to links on virtual realities and quantum mechanics: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3572

Invariance of the speed of light: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3849&p=12010&hilit=speed+light#p12010

Tom will answer any specialist type questions, but you will have to wait for him to be available as he is traveling frequently and consulting for NASA as well. I will attempt to answer questions if possible and to give links to Tom's answers if already available. You can search for yourself on the forums as well of course.

Welcome to the bulletin board, by the way.

Ted

Hi Krimson,

I do PhD in AI too, check out what I do if you like and perhaps get in touch if you find something interesting we could talk about.

Regards,
Martin Peniak

_________________
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
www.martinpeniak.com

specialis_sapientia and Ted,

thank you for your replies, I will work through some of that lot and hopefully absorb the gist of what the book is about. Glossing over it though, it currently appears to me as more of a set of analogies or way of thinking, rather than a detailed description of (an) ontological reality.

If is a theory, rather than set of analogies (which sort of is a theory anyway), without specific testable predictions the details of the theory cannot be justified, i.e., there is no reason for anyone to believe this stuff over any other explanation(s) of the same phenomena. Yes it is only 'true' if it corresponds to your own personal experience, and this is testing the theory, but can you test its details? (I would prioritise this kind of testing/verification over 'objective' evidence)

The problem is that you may find multiple world-models/theories/books that can equally allow you to explain (understand and conceptually represent) your experiences to yourself, including multiple states of consciousness you may encounter, all the
way from ordinary states of consciousness right up to enlightenment.

e.g., take a look at the theory on www.egodeath.com (not the same but you should get my point)...

Nevertheless, if as a world-model it effectively helps people to help themselves and to help others, to act with compassion, then that is another matter altogether.

I do think the mainstream materialistic, dualistic world-view is not just wrong and incoherent, but is likely responsible for many of the global and personal crises at present. A step away from that is a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned, regardless of the details! I tend to think as long as we are kind to ourselves and others then it doesn't really matter... (and some people argue you can never truly 'know' an ontological reality 'beyond your senses')...

We just have to make up our own damn minds! Take no one's word for it... ;)

Martin,

Will send you a message :)

Hello Krimson:

MBT is not just analogies or way of thinking. Not at all. TOE stands for Theory of Everything. It's a model of everything you can think of and more.

Why don't you start with the videos. That's what I did. After that my curiosity made me buy the books and here I am.

Here is a Playlist of 18 videos of a Lecture Tom gave in London:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=CE5EA05F1F683940

The book also talks about Artificial Intelligence and the possibility to create Consciousness through AI. You or Martin may be involved in the starts of creating AI consciousness. Don't miss this opportunity.

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

All,
I wasn't sure where to put this until I read the last reply by krimson. Here is something my university is participating in, so I have access to participate, I hope others interested can have access as well. http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/icpsrweb/ICP ... /index.jsp. It is a Webinar being sponsored by the Inter-University Consortium for Political and Social Research (ICPSR). I imagine one's university would need to be a member of the ICPSR to be able to "attend", although anyone is free to try and register I suppose. A nice use of this technology to support positive social change. Oh yes, the theme of the Webinar is, "Real Data in a Virtual World", using it (real data) for positive social change.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Martin,

I did not go far with the link you provided. As soon as I saw this quotation, I left it: "The essence and origin of religion is the use of visionary plants to routinely trigger the intense mystic altered state, producing loose binding of cognitive associations. This loose cognitive binding then produces an experience of being controlled by frozen block-universe determinism with a single, pre-existing, ever-existing future."
I don't see the first part of this as being true relating to visionary plants as the origin of religion and I see the last part as disintegrating into jargon. I don't know whether this is academic in origin or just one person's conceptualization, but I totally disagree as to the truth and likely usefulness of anything stemming from this conceptual origin.

Regarding the usefulness of models and modeling of reality and what belief you should place in them, try this link:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3696&start=0

Once you truly get into Consciousness Space from a point based upon your existence and viewpoint as a PMR virtual being, you are so involved with subjective understanding and interpretation of your experience that 'proof' becomes an iffy concept. To me, the way that Tom's My Big TOE linked to, encompassed and explained what I had already run into, put together for myself and experienced, creating a whole and interlinked gestalt was my 'proof'. The bottom line as you phrased it becomes:
"We just have to make up our own damn minds! Take no one's word for it... ;)" which I see as entirely equivalent to Tom's usual phrasing of being open minded but skeptical.

You should enjoy these forums, whatever you decide about MBT which I predict will be positive, once you get into things in more depth.

Ted

I think you meant Krimson, not me :)

Regards,
Martin

_________________
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
www.martinpeniak.com

Hello Martin:

I was going to say the same. I was looking at your website and thinking: Where did Ted see this religion quote? I then put his quote in Google and found out he was talking about the site that Krimson mentioned.

Martin, I realized now that you were the same person that Tom introduced to us with your video of Mind and Matter Connection (btw, very interesting video).

Reference: http://www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3893&p=12209&hilit=Peniak#p12209

Martin, did you read the parts of MBT that mention the possibility of creating an AI that can have Consciousness (capability for self evolution)?

How far do you see the possibility of creating some elementary AI that can self evolve?

That would be interesting.

Glad to see you in the boards.

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

(sorry, I should have realised that looked like a signature)

Ted, I read your other post, was happy to see it's surprisingly similar to what I said above; I think we are pretty much in agreement. Two phrases come to mind:

1. The map is not the territory.
2. The paths vary, the goal is the same.

It's quite amazing the variety of models, metaphors, explanations out there - they all tend to point to the same thing. :)

One difficulty is that an 'ultimate explanation' may not be reachable. I don't see how you can argue for it, when everything you will ever experience is coming to you via your senses. How can we ever know that there isn't an entirely novel alien universe completely separate to ours just next door?

As for the egodeath theory, 'visionary plants' and other compounds, in addition to meditation and a bunch of other things can all induce altered conscious states that may challenge your model of reality. Any model of reality or 'theory of everything' must take into account all these states. A ToE would have to describe precisely how our 'mechanistic brains', e.g., neuronal activation, are correlated to conscious experience. This is ESSENTIAL to bridge the gap between Western science and this kind of work. Luckily work of this kind is now underway.

I found the egodeath theory interesting because it refers to a specific altered state in which an individual experiences timelessness and their 'lack of control agency'. In other words, the truth of their lack of 'free will'. The theory states that the future is singular and determined, i.e., that your life is entirely pre-determined down to the tiniest detail. This means that every moment in the past and future is fixed and has always existed, i.e., that the universe is a timeless 'block', that time is an illusion.

I would be interested to know whether this contradicts Tom's theory or whether it is compatible? It is interesting because this is a *real* experience you can have, apparently. I haven't experienced it myself, but assuming you could, you are then faced with the problem of how to change your world-model.

I think the real difficulty is distinguising hallucination from insight. When people say 'I just experienced God', 'I experienced universal consciousness', 'I was one with all', etc, etc, was this some kind of illusion or insight into actuality? Etc...

Krimson: You may have to trust me on this one. I tried a lot or paths, research, experiences, and invested a lot of time. MBT will cut that time a lot. It is a great shortcut. Most of your questions are going to be answered, but not just by MBT but after all your "thinking" with open mind and skepticism you can do while experiencing the journey of MBT. Start with the video link I sent you above or other material posted in this thread and you will see for yourself.

Welcome,

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

Besides nonphysical digital consciousness being the only "real" thing, Absolute Free Will (AFW) is one of very few absolutes. It is true, we have AFW.

It is up to those of us interested in pulling out the way the neurological brain system works that need to pull out how the physical brain neurological system/neural web works, not MBT or some other ToE. It will just fit with MBT when pulled out to the level possible by the neuroscience researchers, of which I will be someday when I grow-up, when that happens. Think of the brain, our physical brain, and Alzheimer's dis ease, for instance. The physical brain is deteriorating with plack and other wiring issues, but every so often the person becomes lucid again for just a moment. As Ted says if the brain was turning to pudding, and it was the star of the party (it isn't), this would not happen, and it does happen. Consciousness is our control agent, and it requires we have AFW, as I understand it.

As for being one with everything, a human approaches Zen hot dog vendor saying, "Make me one with everything", the vendor hands the human his hot dog accepting the $20 bill handed to him, putting it in the drawer and closing it. The human customer says, "Hey, where is my change?", the vendor says, "Change must come from within." :)
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Dear Claudio,

Thank you very much for the warm welcome! Indeed, I am very interested in evolving AI. I have done some work with the Mars rover etc. but this is trivial comparing to what I would like to try in the future. I really need to consider Tom's proposal on the evolution of consciousness.
Need to slow down a bit with what I have started :D Doing too much at the moment I think, my PhD, work for ESA plus the mind matter connection research. I sometimes wish a day had at least 50hours :)

All the best,
m

_________________
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
www.martinpeniak.com