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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:40 am 
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1. i understand there is a possibility to get lost in alternate realities (past, future, "akashic records"). How do we know we`re not lost in one? or are.

-kind of like the 1st:
3. Can we as consciousness enter lives/experience-packages with 0 decision space? i fear my life has been lived by a numberless amount of soul, only the first guy expressing (free) will.

2. are there humans on earth without soul? (maybe no consciousness wants to enter a person/life..) if so, does karma apply equally in action with/towards them? ... :/

thank you :D

-kristian


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:24 am 
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Kristian,

Your questions are not consistent with Tom Campbell's books, My Big TOE and the model of reality that he presents there or with my understanding of our reality. We, as incarnated humans here in PMR, Physical Matter Reality, are IUOCs experiencing this as a Virtual Reality. A VR is experienced in our mind, our true being as an Individuated Unit of Consciousness. Thus we cannot get 'lost' in the sense you imply. We most certainly can become confused, lost in a sense, if we wander unknowingly into alternate experiences as you mention, but not lost in any real sense. We always exist as an IUOC in our own 'place' on the RWW.

There are no ways for humans, experiencers of PMR, to do so without their true and total self as an IUOC existing there on the RWW and experiencing PMR as a data stream coming over the RWW. That is simply the way that the system works. Thus, since our true self as an IUOC, sometimes called our soul, exists and participates as the true experiencer of this life, there is no way for 'humans on earth' not to have souls. It just does not work that way.

It is our nature as IUOCs to have free will. Thus it is not possible for an incarnated human to not have free will. Decision space is another matter, but it does not go to zero for incarnated humans and what you are concerned about, while not absolutely an impossibility in a sense, is highly unlikely and you need not fear that you have no free will. Not liking your options and the pressures you feel acting on you, feeling that you have no choices is a different matter. That is not lack of free will and free will never means that you get the choices that you want, only that you can make choices.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:41 am 
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Thanks for answering, Ted


nr.1 you answered fully.
nr.2 you`re pretty clear about that.. no soulless humans.

sorry for the nonconsistency. not really sorry, though, the questions amuses me, but i respect your territory.


nr.3 ... you dont know, maybe?
(edit: on read-through 13/11 11/13 i see you answered this perfectly well.)

a little confused ..
MBT is consistent with guided considering of available future incarnations, right?


Last edited by k0liver on Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:33 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:56 am 
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Hi Kristan,

I have only seen this referred to in the (metaphysical) literature a few times, but, apparently, some of the folks flapping around in NPMR can "lean in" and view our lives and the world we live in "from the inside", and gain a sense of the realm through a particular person's consciousness. This may be by invitation only, or in the case of the exceptionally evolved, at will. (I almost never notice these latter kind... they can do their observing and thinking "very quietly". Other's can be somewhat leaky with their impressions: "OMG...! It all looks so real! Those cars! Those clothes This must be the time just before the 'Three Big'. " " ....shshshsh! I think he just heard you!") ...all in non-verbal communication. To them, this feels like looking at a film does to us... something already fixed, done, unalterable, and if you pick up that feeling from them you can easily mistake it for your own.

Occasionally, but not often, I will get what amounts to a request to look at, or think about, some object or or process.

An example or two: Many years ago I worked in a restaurant that is on the Flathead Indian Reservation. I gradually became aware of what I understood to be a small community of old fellows, who seemed to be living in a cave like world of darkness... no sight, no sound, some feeling. One or two of these "fellows" would sometimes "lean my way" (in an NPMR sense). I guess they liked my energy, and their's was something like a breath of fresh air to me. They never ever said or did a single thing that I knew of, but once there was sort of an exclamation point by one of them. It amounted to an expression of interest, which was perceivable as a question: "What happens at that spot?" The being had noticed that at a particular spot in the restaurant peoples' consciousness changed. (It was the place where the schedule, which was always changing, was posted. Apparently, there is a fairly regular, if brief, shift to a quieter consciousness when people are openly looking for information. I did try to explain a little of what happened there, but only that it was a place of pause or inquiry. I had the impression that the physical world as we have it was so far away from these guys that understanding what it means, for instance, to sit and have a cup of coffee with a friend would have been a tremendous achievement. The ideas of liquid and gravity (to keep the stuff in a cup) and cupness alone being just the wildest rote for them). The curious thing about it was that it was local in PMR. Apparently those guys are somehow affiliated to that piece of turf of space. I never heard from them or sensed them anywhere else.

Another instance: When I paint the house, like many a painter, I'll turn on a radio. Used to be AM oldies stuff. Apparently, the quieter consciousness that attends to physical craft type processes feels more approachable to non-carnates. Or maybe it is simply that I sense them more easily. But they would turn up, and (using Monroe-ist non-verbal communication) say "Ew. What's that noise?" And I would explain briefly that in this culture, we have this stuff called music that contains emotional forms. A person can cultivate various emotions by using the forms, etc... the basic rundown. This has happened a number of times. And, nearly invariably, the worst possible songs will start up.... "It's my party and I'll cry if I want to~", or "Now it's Judy's turn to cry, Judy's turn to cry, Judy's turn to criiiiiiiii-eee--I-I..." and they ask: "Oh. What's that about?" ....and I really really really really really want to lie. I mean, c'mon! But I just tell them that it's human non-sense, fiinally confessing that humans are just like monkeys, only more so. Nowadays when I paint the house I stick with NPR. (National Public Radio)

I'll bet Tom has piles of tales like this. It just isn't politic for respectable people to acknowledge that they have them. (Science guys are often big teases, and Tom is no exception: In his lectures, he seems to make a point of alluding to "OOM", out of mind experiences, but then lets it pass as though it were a joke. What he alludes to though is not a joke, in fact, it's the big prize.) Any pretensions that I might entertain of mainstream human respectability I laughed off long ago, so have no qualms talking about this sort of thing.

-Montana


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:43 am 
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Thank you, Montana, really appreciated :)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:53 am 
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Kristan,

Sorry that you did not understand my answer to your third question.

To be very specific I first repeat your question as "Can we as consciousness enter lives/experience-packages with 0 decision space?"
Also to be very specific and clear, the answer is no, you cannot. To feel this way is confusion on your part, apparently from the way you are experiencing your present life. You will have to explain your problem with my first answer a little more in order for me to expand it further so you understand what I was trying to get across to you.

With regards to your new question, which I repeat below:
"a little confused ..
MBT is consistent with guided considering of available future incarnations, right?"

You will simply have to explain this further as the question is unclear. Are you asking if MBT agrees that guides will show us available incarnations and help us decide on the right one before a new incarnation? If that is your question, the answer is yes.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:10 pm 
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Thanks Ted, that cleared things up :)

I don`t feel that way (having 0 decision space), but wondered(?) the possibility of that property/ability("consciousness enter lives/experience-packages with 0 decision space?"). How can you know? Does it violate the ruleset of Tom`s MBT? (I guess I can find the answer in the book.. but it`s faster/easier/more interesting to put it out here and see how you guys reply and i appreciate that you do :) If it doesn`t and everything that can happen does/will happen..

Ted:
-Are you asking if MBT agrees that guides will show us available incarnations and help us decide on the right one before a new incarnation? If that is your question, the answer is yes.

Kristian:
-Yes, thats it, thanks.

-Kristian


Last edited by k0liver on Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:22 pm 
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Hi kristian
1. i understand there is a possibility to get lost in alternate realities (past, future, "akashic records"). How do we know we`re not lost in one? or are.

Bette: Experience and being ‘grounded' in one frame for reference (this just popped out).

-kind of like the 1st:
3. Can we as consciousness enter lives/experience-packages with 0 decision space? i fear my life has been lived by a numberless amount of soul, only the first guy expressing (free) will.

Bette: No

2. are there humans on earth without soul? (maybe no consciousness wants to enter a person/life..) if so, does karma apply equally in action with/towards them? ... :/

Bette: No

Now I'll read the other replies.
Love
Bette

first edit/addition:

kristian: a little confused ..
MBT is consistent with guided considering of available future incarnations, right?

Bette: MBT has some information on how to access, or that it is possible anyway, probable unactualized future threads in the database to be able to see some future probabilities of what may happen at some future date in one's current carnation, but that is not written in stone since all of the actors involved have Absolute Free Will. I'm busy enough with this life to be wondering about my next, personally. Back to reading, this is interesting, thanks.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:36 pm 
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Montana wrote:
Any pretensions that I might entertain of mainstream human respectability I laughed off long ago, so have no qualms talking about this sort of thing.

Hi Montana,
I'm not normal, and I don't even pretend to be. Normal is boring, to me. It is a little 'tough' in a reality that is so appearance ruled, but it is what it is.
Love
Bette

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:57 pm 
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Kristan,

By all means, read and look in My Big TOE for specific answers to questions. That is my reference too if I don't have it from the same source that Tom got it, direct. That is what I was trying to explain before but was not clear to you. What I was trying to explain was that we are all IUOCs, Individuated Units of Consciousness and this is us as our total self, higher self or our soul or whatever you choose to call it/us/our mind as we exist there on/in/as part of the Reality Wide Web and as part of The One Consciousness. As such, we of absolute necessity in order to exist and function must have Absolute Free Will. This is also part of Tom's model. This is an absolutely necessary part of the model.

Now when you come into the experience of a PMR lifetime, you may feel that you have no decision space but that is an impossibility. You may be surrounded by insurmountable obstacles, in your view, and thus feel that you have no choice but some one pathway into the future. This is however never totally true. It may be the only choice visible to you as you have your understanding limited by your beliefs. You may not like some of the consequences of choices and therefore ignore them or choose to not even see them as possibilities. You do however have choices and if you truly understand the nature of reality and what the true nature of good versus evil choices are, you may be able to see other desirable choices or at least to see the best choice realistically. I hope that I have fully stated this so you understand now. If not, I will try again.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:29 pm 
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Thanks Bette, Ted,

think I get it.

kristian:
-i fear my life has been lived by a numberless amount of soul, only the first guy expressing (free) will.
This wasn`t literal, sorry, but intended as a jokish example to clarify the question.

Your VR-point rang through to me, Ted.


-Kristian


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:17 am 
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Tom, from another thread:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3567

"every thought and feeling and action and intent of that virtual character (you) is saved (lives forever -- though as a model and without free will) in the historical database."


Kristian:
That model, i imagine, if a IUOC made good choices and lowered its entropy effectively, would be a useful "run" for other IUOCs. The IUOC could decide with its absolutely free will to "run" that "file"..

I`m still not convinced that such a "prospect" could not be accessible/possible within AUM in consistency with Tom`s TOE.

-Kristian


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:37 am 
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Anything is possible, whether, or rather, how probable an event is is the kicker in the long run.

As I understand it, and it is more from Robert Monroe's books, a "model" that has worked well in the past will be used again in a future life. So running a file, or using the basic life experience set-up (what type family you are born to, what model body you pick [this is my little theory], abilities and even name as I understand it) makes sense.

Now what I have no concept of is if the 'same' IUOC would be using 'it' more than once, or if an other IUOC could use it.
Love
Bette

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:18 pm 
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Thank you, Bette,

yes, i`ve read Tom mentioning the same thing; a "favorite" personality model used over. What about an (any ones) exact (past) life in totality (as a entropy-lowering program)?

-Kristian


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:07 pm 
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Kristian and Bette,

A favorite setup as a virtual being to experience PMR can be you as you are on the basis of being effective as a learner and explorer. Do a good job and your present persona may get to ride the range again. Unless the purpose in a life is radically changed from the usual plan, why change the main character and mess with success. But that favorite character is a virtual being within yourself as an IUOC. It is not available to another IUOC to use as a model for themselves as they set up a virtual experiencer of a new PMR session.

If I am understanding you correctly, past lives as recorded can and are used by IUOCs as training experiences. Both for repetition by the original experiencer to try alternate paths and available to other IUOCs as training experiences to find out how another made their choices and lived their lives. These are mind expanding options that are available.

Ted


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