Hi everyone,

So I have not posted very much in this forum, but I actually stop by quite frequently to read the discussions that take place here and I often find them quite interesting!

So currently I'm dealing with a bit of confusion, and I'd like to ask Tom and any of the experienced meditators on this forum for some advice. When it comes to meditation, I'm very much a beginner.

At the end of December I headed for a 10-day Vipassana meditation course, from which I've just returned, which is what has caused some of my confusion. Just to give you an idea of what Vipassana meditation is, for those who are not familiar (I wasn't, 10 days ago!): For three days the mind is trained to become more focused by watching the breath. From the fourth day onward, one works predominantly with body sensations. You scan your body continuously, part by part, to sense subtle (usually pleasant) and gross (less pleasant, pain) sensations. You observe these sensations rise and pass away, trying to build the awareness that sensations are constantly changing, not permanent. The key is to observe rather than to get attached to the pleasant sensations or feel repulsed by the unpleasant ones, to stay "equanimous" or balanced in the face of both good and bad, knowing that things are bound to change. To see reality as it is, and to stay balanced in the face of it. So this practice is geared towards training your mind to stop reacting with its old patterns. I hope I've explained it well enough. (let me know if I should clarify more)

In the evening of each day, we would watch a video where Goenkaji, the man responsible for spreading Vipassana around the world, would explain the theory behind the method. One thing he absolutely insists on, over and over, is that Vipassana should not be mixed with any other energy work or meditation techniques, going as far as to call it downright dangerous. He says that Vipassana trains the mind in one particular way, and that other methods train the mind differently and that these methods are not compatible. One metaphor given was a man who sits in a boat going down a river. Someone else comes by and says "try this boat, it's much faster." So the first man says, "Okay, but I don't want to give up my boat. Better that I put one foot in one boat, and one foot in the other." A nice way to illustrate it, but in the end a metaphor is just a metaphor, and I'm wondering at the reality behind this. I don't want to simply disregard such a warning, seeing as this man has definitely had more experience than me, but I've never before come across anyone saying not to mix different techniques. I'm wondering if anyone might give their opinions on this?

Goenkaji also seemed to be doubtful as to the usefulness of other meditation techniques. He said that using mantras and visuablization act primarily to concentrate the mind, but that they do not work to help a person grow (change the habit pattern of the mind, in his words).

Another question I have involves the connection between mind and body. From the messages I have read in this forum, most people here seem to focus out OOBEs, of getting away from the body. Like I said, Vipassana meditations works primarily with body sensations, and Goenkaji mentioned that the dissolution of all gross sensations so that one is left with only subtle sensations, is a key step on the path of growth. (Or even just being connected to your body, period. I was stunned to see how many areas of my body are "blind") I've come across this concept in other literature that deal with growth and consciousness. Eckhart Tolle at least mentions it in The Power of Now, although he does not really go into it with any depth. Ken Wilber has also written on this subject. I'm wondering what Tom and the rest of the meditators here might say regarding the awareness of body sensations? The idea of meditation to become more fully aware of one's body, versus the idea of 'escaping' it by quieting the mind sufficiently... they seem like two different roads to me, and I'm wondering which to take. Or maybe in the end they lead to the same place, and it's only the words that are different?

I have one last thing I'd like to mention. I hesitate to add it because this is an already monstrous message, but I thought I would explain every part of my current situation. Last April I came across a q-link (http://q-link.ca/qlink_home.html), and have been wearing it every since. I never really felt an effect. During the meditation retreat I took it off (they ask you to take off any pendants). After 10 days, I put it back on and I definitely definitely felt something. At night time during the meditation period, my body would feel pretty strong vibrations... I can't really say whether I consider them pleasant or unpleasant - they were simply there - but these strengthened dramatically when I put the q-link back on. I don't know what it does, but it does something. Ironically enough, when I didn't feel an effect, I didn't mind wearing it. Now that I have experienced an effect, I'm wondering whether I should continue to wear it. It is doing something to the subtle energies of my body, and I'm wondering whether this is a good thing. I'm wondering whether it's simply a crutch, and whether it's not better to try walking without it. Then again, if it can help me...? I'm not sure what sort of advice I'm looking for, but maybe someone here has experience with such things?

I have a really strong desire within me to better myself as a person, for my own sake and for the sake of those around me. A lot of changes have taken place in my life over the last year (for the better), and I really want to keep this process going in any way I can. So I'm concerned about engaging with any of these things, whether it's life or meditation or the q-link in a manner that's productive, rather than running after things in a way that may lead me in the opposite direction that I want to go. I know I'm supposed to be experimenting with different methods myself, to find what works for me, but I do feel pretty confused at the moment, and could use some advice from those with more experience.

Sorry that this is so long. Any thoughts are very appreciated.

Thank you,

Julia

Hi Julia,

We're glad to have you! I was very, very intruiged by your post for some reason, and felt that I should reply to it. I can definitely relate to your confusion, and I don't think it's uncommon. I, myself- have for the most part, taken for granted the idea that no one is 100% wrong about their view of reality. We are all expressions of the Truth, in whatever form we take. I think the point of every meditative practice (in its distilled essence) is its allowing one to see that every moment is a meditation- every moment is truth. Tom mentions in the books that growth doesn't require the so-called "OOBE" and that it is really about improving the organization/decreasing the "unprofitability" of your personal subset of Consciousness and not so much about "getting away from the body." So I think Tom is in agreement with that idea (the idea that it isn't necessary).

My intuitive feeling has always been that "spiritual teachers" who claim that mixing "their techniques" with others' is dangerous are generally distorting the truth to a considerable degree. Most of these people are promoting their own brand of truth and therefore have some weird vested interest in converting people to their mindset. Free yourself from that. It is a matter of belief and open minded skepticism. There are no dangers that do not stem from our beliefs in mixing meditative practices/philosophies/techniques. Manifest (be, become) exactly as you feel you should. If something doesn't feel right- then it probably isn't (right for you), but don't take some guru's "word for it." If there is fear within you about branching out and expanding your reality further then have courage and do what comes naturally. You need to accept the fact that if there is "danger" to practicing alternate methods of meditation- then so be it! You, as indestructable consciousness will pull through in the event you believe yourself into some personal crisis. But, to my understanding- every moment is truth, every moment should/could/would be a meditation if we would simply stop and notice/be aware of all that we can be aware of in every present Moment. Any "practice" that helps you to do that- can be of use. Any practice that works as a tool in aiding your ability to interact harmoniously with the other subsets of consciousness about you and your 'environment' in general- should be explored without fear of any potential "danger." Be free of that idea.

:)

-cole

_________________
Never live so certainly as to confuse your own convictions with what is true.

Hi Cole,

Thank you for your warm reply. :)

I think I am actually worried less about danger than I am about efficacy. When I discussed the notion of using other techniques with one of the other students at the retreat (a woman who had been practicing this for the past seven years), she gave another illustration that intrigued me. Imagine people who train their muscles for synchronized swimming; apparently you do a very specialized kind of training that hardens the muscles so that they can maintain positions in the water. If these people were to start doing yoga, they would loosen and stretch their muscles in a way that would hamper and possibly reverse their progress in synchronized swimming. It's easy to see how this would be the case for the body, and I'm open to the idea that this may also be the case when it comes to training the mind in a particular way.

Goenkaji did say in his video lectures that if this approach does not fit, that one should go try another, but that the point is to practice a particular approach fully and with focus. He said otherwise one becomes highly confused (heh, here I am!)... sort of like if you meditate with a holy banana peel on your lap every day, if you start to experience changes in your life, you might begin to wonder whether it is the meditating or the holy banana peel that is helping you progress. (Bad analogy, I know!)

I certainly agree with you in that nothing should simply believed because someone says so. But I think it's exactly this reason why this meditation course gave me so much food for thought. I actually quite respect the approach taken, as Goenkaji stressed again and again that nothing should be believed, and that truth should be experienced, and that no one else's truth matters as the truth that you yourself experience. This really resonated with me, and actually I thought of the similarities between his words and MTB often. He also stressed that the meditation technique would bring 'results' and that anything that does not bring results should not be practiced. Along with this he stressed, of course, that his technique needed to maintained as he taught it, that if practiced wrong, results would not come.

I just wanted to clarify that there was not such a strong push to simply 'believe' ... if there had been, I would have been turned off pretty quickly, I think!

Thanks for your thoughts! :)

Julia

hi julia
At the end of the day its just a tool so use it in that way.
I wouldnt get to wrapped up in what someone would perceive to be the right or wrong way to use their particular form of meditation,take form it what you like leave the rest and move on without fear of doing something wrong.
Just do what works for you but i definatly wouldnt worry too much about it being dangerous,
that will surely hold you back?
what could be more dangerous than that?

wayne.

_________________
Obsession is a word used by the idle to describe the dedicated.

Hello Julia, this is the perfect place for questions :)



I think it's great you take initiate something like this. I am not personally familiar with that type of meditation, but there are hundreds of different kind. I think the important question is whether this is the right one for you, it might not be. Give it some time, see if anything productive is going on, if not it's no problem as you will find another way.



I think this is indeed the source of much confusion.

Especially in the east, there are many many different kinds of "schools", sects and religious organizations, most of them believe that their way of doing things are better than the others, it is "the right way" and everyone else is doing it the wrong way, in my opinion all that is pretty ridiculous. Another aspect of that is money, some of these organizations and gurus pretty much run on money, profit, and thus the other ways become "dangerous" of course..

I don't personally know why any kind of energy work system should conflict with others, maybe he knows something I don't, he might be right but I don't know him. To be safe, you can try that system and then either go with it, or completely disregard it and there will be no danger, as he proclaims.

"try this boat, it's much faster."
"Okay, but I don't want to give up my boat. Better that I put one foot in one boat, and one foot in the other."
In some way, this has a point, it might be better to stick with something and don't jump around, but one shouldn't:

"Quick, your boat is sinking" "Okay, but I don't want to give up my boat, it is very special, my guru says so"

Meditation is just a tool, there are different ways to use that tool, but none is more holy, sacred, or important than the others, if one acts so it becomes a ritual and some of the efficiency is lost.

Body sensations, visualizations, mantras, binaural beats, they are equal in their purpose. Simply use what works best for one self, and use that. Any kind of meditation or energy works does not provide real growth in itself, it about how it is applied to one's being and intent. That is why no particular technique should be viewed as he does, it is just a tool. A great tool for the mind.



I think both roads are great, I also like those martial arts where mental discipline is facilitated through physical exercise, Shaolin monks come to mind.

Try it out, find out what works best for you, and go with that. Experiment, explore.



Hmm, tough question. I am sceptical about the product, there are quite a lot people riding the new-age wave and trying to exploit it, I have seen that before. My knowledge of biofields are limited, so I can't judge if it works or not. I don't think the effect is harmful in any way. Maybe you can just try both. Go a week with it, and week without and so on, and then conclude if it's positive for you or not.



That is the most important thing, the desire to become a better person, to grow. You can't really go wrong with that. Maybe knowing that the primary way of growth is free-will choices throughout the day, that are based on good intent. Knowing that this is essential, and meditation/OBE/pendants are completely secondary and optional might give you some confidence, and defuse that confuse.

Also, Cole's words share much wisdom.

Just a last thing, have you considered meditation used to reach the point consciousness state?

Sorry for the delay in responding; time ran away from me these last couple of days and I've been chasing it ever since!

Thank you both for your replies, and I do very much agree that fear of danger is not a good reason to be held back. However, when someone makes such a statement I don't want to entirely dismiss it either, and at least investigate whether there is any truth in it. I feel that if I simply dismiss it, it would be based on my beliefs rather than any concrete knowledge. Of course the same goes if I simply accept it. Hence my posting the question, to see what others with more experience might tell me! :)



Definitely agree with you there... if my boat is sinking, I'll try to find another one!



Yes, of course! But all those pesky thoughts keep getting in the way...
Actually, during the Vipassana course, the first three days are spent working towards concentrating the mind through a technique called Anapana - which is simply a technique for observing the natural breath. I'm guessing if this technique was carried on long enough, it would lead to the point consciousness state (at least if I understand the term correctly).


I also came across an interesting article that deals with different types of meditation (http://www.thaiexotictreasures.com/meditation_1.html)

What I find really interesting in this article is that it divides different kinds of meditation in the two categories of "objective" and "subjective" where objective meditation is the concentration of the mind on an object, and subjective meditation is defined as a process of self-inquiry and self-observation.

The article gives several reasons why these different types of meditations should be combined:

"Then there is a third point in favor of such a combination. Upasana [objective] increases one's power of concentration but does not necessarily increase one's power of self-control to an equal degree. As a result the aspirant may find it difficult to remain unaffected by the contact of other people and the cares and distractions of daily work. Nididhyasana [sujective] enables the aspirant to abide in the real abode within and remain calm and unaffected by the environment.

Further, it prevents the aspirant from mistaking strong imaginations and hallucinations for genuine spiritual experience, as often happens in those who practice only objective meditation. A true spiritual experience transforms one's consciousness and produces some knowledge of the higher self. Self-inquiry is necessary to recognize this. Lastly, combining nididhyasana and upasana satisfies both the head and the heart."

Vipassana meditation (at least from what I understood from the course) would fit into the category of subjective meditation. Objective meditation is recognized as an important precursor to concentrate the mind, but then attempts to move beyond this towards self-observation.

specialis_sapientia, you wrote:


I tend to agree that this is a very important way to grow. However, I think that those involved in 'subjective' meditation would argue that self-knowledge and growth can happen during the meditative state, and that you condition your mind to become less reactive which will help in those daily interactions. I'm wondering whether getting to point consciousness can also affect your growth in this way?

Ah, questions, questions! :)

I hope I don't sound like I'm trying to argue for this style of meditation; I'm still pretty open about all of these methods, but I find this line of thought very interesting. I would love to hear more of your thoughts.

Julia

You are welcome, I too find this conversation interesting and stimulating.



Funny thing, 3 minutes after I read your reply I listened to some of Tom's recent interview, at 24:00 to ~+36:20 point consciousness and meditation is mentioned and discussed:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/soulnews/2 ... m=listener

I think it might be helpful for you :) (You are welcome to listen to the whole thing)

Yes, you are right. Observing the natural breath is an excellent way to keep intrusive thoughts away, similar to a mantra. You could try to relax, and observe your breath for 10 minutes, after that you let it go and silence your mind. It should be easier this way, instead of doing nothing in the start of the meditation.

One can also meditate like this for 10 seconds and so, while at work or school. I have found it easy to relax the mind in those stressful/noisy situations but it's a very limited time, since you can't just drift off like that :p. Better than nothing I guess, and it is always a plus to be able to meditate in hard conditions, albeit for a short time. It's a start.

You can also listen to some peaceful and soothing music, while meditating. I one can connect with the music emotionally, which is less disturbing than intellectual exercises during meditation, it might help keep and thoughts on "low" if one tries to just experience the now, with the music.

Binaural beats can be often be useful to reach the point consciousness state, it is done by entraining the brain wave patterns into a coherent brain waves associated with meditation, sleep and dreams.

It is like reversing cause and effect, in some way.

I could upload a 30 minutes theta wave binaural beat if you are interested.



There are so many different types of meditation, even so because the purpose of meditation can be different.

There are many specialized types, I think it's great with diversity.

Though, when I now think about it I would argue that the point consciousness state is one of the most productive. The advantage is that one is just pure consciousness, and that by intent one can do whatever one would be able to do in other more specialized states of consciousness, at least theoretical. An important thing to notice is that the point consciousness state is a state achieved by meditation, there are many ways to reach the state, there is not only one way to reach it.



Yup, meditation is definitely the way to go when one get that awareness of purpose. The awareness, and desire to become more, is a great catalyst for accelerated growth, for lowering entropy. One great tool for expanding the horizon is meditation. You are consciousness, why not "study" and get to know that consciousness, by having cognizance of this one will evolve more.

Growth can happen during meditation, as meditation often seems to be an actualization of potentiality. It can be direct or indirect (desire for growth) growth.

Point consciousness can be one of those.

I would love to hear more of your thoughts too, since I am not that much into eastern mysticism, my knowledge of the meditations practised there are limited. I could sure learn something from it.

It would be great to learn from each other :)

Julia,

There is no question that meditation, what ever 'sana' you put it under, can aid in understanding and growth. The extreme position that meditation can take the place of everything else to develop your quality of consciousness has been advocated here before and I would only disagree in the extreme case. Tom has stated, and it is my understanding, that it is by interactions between IUOCs that our selves as we exist within Consciousness Space (through the modality of a PMR VR or not) that our quality of consciousness is actually and gradually improved. Training by interaction is much more effective than intellectual study or meditation in isolation. That is our inherent characteristic as IUOCs as we exist that is used in the design of the PMR class of VRs to produce this result whether we are aware of the process or not. Mere unconscious or clueless participation, in the sense of not deeply understanding consciousness, participating in meditation, etc., can still produce gains in quality of consciousness and is the basis for the design of PMRs. It is the way that the great majority participates and still achieves desirable gains. If this were not so, the VR would be redesigned and if the extreme case were the most effective, the PMR VRs would be replaced by training classes instead of interaction laboratories. Mindfulness can accelerate the process, but is not a necessity nor does if exponentially increase the rate of improvement. This is something to be pointed out more to assure those who do not, or feel that they do not, experience success with meditation that they are not being left out rather than to suggest that those involved with and committed to meditation are wasting their time.

To the extent that we become a hermit interacting with no one, we interfere with our development by avoiding the interactions that are inherent to the design of our VR experiences, especially within PMR where the intensity and speed of interaction and the feedback from the interaction is accelerated. I hope that this is of some value. I am no expert on meditation to give advice on how to aspects. What is best for you as an individual is for your own discovery from experimentation. But this is how it fits into the structure and design of PMR type VRs.

Ted

Hey SS,

While listening to that Soul News audio, I got a chuckle over Tom's comments regarding frequencies for the binaural beat synthesis.

Due to my electronics training dealing with frequency attributes I had always wondered if the theta state was spot on 4 Hertz or if that was just a 'good enough' value. Tom mentions dialing in to 3.87, if your equipment is good enough. Ha ! That's precision I appreciate !

I'm sure there's many places in cyberspace that deal with theta states information that may offer that kind of precision, but it was sure handy to unexpectedly get it from that interview. :-)

Yes, I thought it was funny too. I also wrote it down.

Though, the frequency of 3.87 is in the delta region, but very close to theta. I think it must be that these are to a degree arbitrary borders, and that 3.87 is functionally a theta state?

I think I should create a binaural beat with the difference at 3.87, instead of using this product I am using. As 3.87 is most likely the most productive frequency of all them in the theta region.

Hi Julia,

Having been through 2 Vipassana events myself I can relate to your thought process.

I read a very interesting book called 'The Quiet' by Paul Wilson which describes three categories of meditation techniques. I could relate Vipassana (inclusive of Anapana) in the third category.

You may wish to check out the book and find your own answers. My personal opinion is that there is no reason to be alarmed by any 'technique bias'.

Best,

Neelesh

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to write a quick note saying that I intend to reply more fully soon. I'm in the process of moving this weekend, which is keeping me busy busy busy!

Neelish, I'm curious, did you keep up the Vipassana meditation practice?

Until soon!

Julia

Yes and no, Julia.

I manage about 20 mins each twice a day, instead of Goenkaji's stipulation of 1 hour twice. Also, I keep the 'format' flexible based on the energy of the moment.

JULIA

The focus on the body portion is an attempt to have you become a more realized human+being, realizing full capability. It won't keep you bound to the body. In PMR, we are human and we are also a constrained IUOC, spiritual being.

Most people live in their heads or as they say from the neck up, asleep, lost in their mind/thoughts etc and only becoming aware of the body when poked or some trouble of sorts affects it (IE stepping on a nail, getting run over by a shopping cart, become sick or even smacked in the face - oooh that stings?).

By practicing and experiencing your senses and sensations, consciously feeling them, such as the sense of touch or smell, feeling your feet as you walk, the warmth of the sun on your face, feeling your limbs, the texture of the door handle when you open it, it opens new perspectives, a broader world it may seem, one that didn't even exist before due to all the distractions of mind alone. This focuses the mind, helps your being accumulate more capacity and ability to do work, lowers entropy, allows for stronger intent and whatever else it is that you are striving for. The body is an anchor against the flow of unconscious activity around you or when you become lost in ur emotions, thoughts, regretting the past or worrying about the future. The body is right here, right now, a PMR tool and a companion to be utilized to stay more present. Breath is another practice and mantras another. Together they are all leading you toward ascension if you use them. You can chop a tree down by yourself but if you have a friend with an axe next to you it makes sense to work together. A body builder uses exercises to build muscle. So too are these exercises designed to build/accumulate something within your being to aid your awareness into a no thought state of stillness. Use all the gears, put it all in motion......

Mind, Body and Soul, its a 3 part deal, they all feed and are interconnected with each other in this PMR. Whether you are attempting to achieve Point consciousness or when interacting with others so that your action is conscious and comes from and increases the level of your being.

Take care of one as well as the other to become a complete human+being which leads to better integration of the whole and a greater awareness beyond this reality frame.


OM

Hi everyone,

So I've finally found some time to reply to all your comments. Sorry for the delay!

SS -

I just finished listening to the interview. Thanks for referring me to it, it's a good one! I really like how Tom puts all the emphasis on small baby-steps... seems like so many of us get impatient and just want to GET there! :)


I agree with this. Actually, my best 'meditation' experiences before going to this course were always while listening to Mozart. I seemed to be able to completely focus on the music, a focus that I could never achieve otherwise. It's also amazing how much more your hear when you give your full attention to it!


I would definitely be interested. I've tried binaural beats a while ago but didn't notice much of an affect... however, I'm also not sure what frequency I was using.


I'm not sure I would consider myself very knowledgable when it comes to eastern mysticism. What I learned during the discourse of the meditation course (and a couple of articles read afterwards) comprises the entirety of my knowledge. Actually, when it comes to learning about consciousness, I've done much more reading that comes from a Western scientific perspective (Wilber, Grof, ...), which is part of the reason why I was so attracted by MTB.


Agreed. I'm learning a lot already!


Ted -


I didn't mean to imply that meditation was to take the place of everything else, and really hope it didn't come across that way. I do feel that everyday interactions are important, and also feel that many spiritual teachers stress the importance of continuing to interact with one's day-to-day life, that one shouldn't turn one's back for the sake of meditating. I do think that for some people isolated contemplation can result in much growth, but I agree that this isn't for everyone.



I hugely agree with this statement. I definitely believe that life is set up in a way to make us grow, whether we are conscious of this being the purpose for our being or not. I'm glad you posted this point, I really feel it is an important one.


Neelesh -


I'll definitely see if I can find the book. Thanks for referring me to it!



I can relate. Two hours are a lot of time to find in a day. But similar to you, I'm trying to keep up a bit of a practice, and also keeping it flexible depending on how I feel.


OM -



Thanks for posting, I really enjoyed reading your message. It got to the heart of the matter I was considering. I've heard it said in very similar words before, that idea of "living in our heads" and "from the neck up" ... A friend of mine got into energy healing a while ago, and he said that when he began he realized how imbalanced all his energies were, how these were mostly fluctuating around the head and chest area, but not below. As for myself, it was a shock to realize how hard it is the sense certain parts of the body. It was so easy for me to think that I was aware of my entire body, when really I was only aware of the "nail and smack" sensations, and not so much the subtler ones!



In some ways I wish this was a topic more often emphasized. It seems to me such a useful tool, so accessible, and yet so often forgotten?


Thanks again for sharing all your thoughts with me! I'm so glad to read them!

Julia