Hello everyone, I've visited this site a few times now and decided to join a while ago but didn't want to say anything without some background knowledge of Tom's TOE. So I watched all the videos on youtube and read what I could short of buying the trilogy (I'm still an undergrad and poor as dirt, so please no suggestion about how I should buy the books). That said, I wanted to share my own TOE, which I've been working on the last 4 years. It's very simple and cuts right to the chase, without meandering through linguistic pastimes that bring about NO positive social or material transformation. Below is an excerpt from a book I've been writing called "The Model Builders", i.e. my TOE (written as a work of fiction, with poetry, dialogue, romance, ect.).

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Prior to language there is only an undifferentiated potential, P. Given a set of stimuli M, let us differentiate M in terms of X, where X can take on one or more of these categorical orderings:

a) economy: the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services
i. material transformation
ii. meaning formation
b) keconomy: the production, distribution, and consumption of knowledge and information
i. memetic transmission
ii. model construction
c) pleconomy: the production, distribution, and consumption of pleasure and entertainment
i. historical significance
ii. red herring

And so on. If we wish to differentiate P in terms of entropic fluctuation, E, with respect to M—that is d/dm P(m,t) at t=0 (think timelessness)—then E(m(x)), with respect to pure consciousness, transduces into a discrete set of electrochemical impulses. This leads, therefore, to the conclusion that the history of all hitherto existing pure consciousness is the history of entropic fluctuation—what a "cognitive neuroscientist" might term, appropriately I might add, the "structuration of neurological interactions". And neurological interactions, first and foremost, must be differentiated and structured by means of the interplays of language. The task for moralists, then, is to supply as many forms of language as possible that are likely to decrease the value of E(m(x)). This can be done, of course, via the transmission and manipulation of M(x) for all domains of X where said transmission and manipulation of the forms of language are possible.
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That's basically the gist of my TOE. Using this model, what does it say about Tom? Well, I don't know Tom, I've never met Tom, and probably never will. But what I can say about Tom is that through all he's done with his work, he's brought about a potential (and likely actualizing) decrease in entropy through the function E(m(x)) evaluated at x=b,c (I'm basically saying he's been a source of information and pleasure. If I was feeling like a sciobiologist, then I might say Tom's transmitting memes, albeit positive ones. Or if I was feeling like a pessimistic economist, I might say Tom's work is just a red herring, in that the opportunity cost of my attending to the stimuli he's generated is not finishing my math portfolio which was due a few days ago. Haha jk Tom). If the reader wish, he/she can also use this model to analyze my TOE and everything I've said thus far. Look at all the words I've typed. They will not, directly or indirectly, bring about material transformation (well, unless a reader gets so inspired he/she goes and build a car that runs on water or something, but let's not be that ridiculous). What they will bring about will be social transformation and, applying the concept of regression towards the mean, probably very little at that. And that's ok for me; even if I'm completely misunderstood, hated, or whatever, the most I can hope for is that someone got a laugh out of it. And I'd happy. Happy, happy. :)

Hi joeysoc03,
Welcome to Tom's MBT discussion forums. It seems odd you put your TOE in the rant section, because I get the feeling you enjoy Tom and his model, respect it even for what it is doing. You are right, it is doing something positive for many people, lowering entropy and making "hurtful" historical occurrences less painful, more learningful; creating a way to understand how it can be viewed as experience, data, that can be understood in a more enlightening way.

Your TOE seems mathematical to me, linear, so it may never get uptaken by my style of thinking, but I am looking at it. Welcome again.
Love to you and yours,
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Thanks bette. It's not that I don't appreciate Tom's model or anything; it's just that I wish more people would think for themselves instead of looking to Tom's model for answers. It's one thing to appreciate a man's work, but quite another to study and memorize it, especially when it's not even a model of the physical system, i.e. it's not a model that will more or less directly bring about material change. This, then, leaves us with one thing that Tom's model does--social transformation. Which isn't a bad thing, but if we're going to judge a man based on the moral qualities of his work, then we must also open our eyes to the men and women from all walks of life who see to it that the social injustice and economic inequality of this world can, and must, come to an end, and can only do so by means of their own personal struggles to end them. I look at Tom's model as more or less a suggestion to all the "hardcore" "scientists": hey, let's do our science, but be loving, understanding people while doing it; let us pay attention to the world around us and understand it enough to be able to at least construct our own personal model to try and understand it; let's discontinue our indifference to the pain and suffering of our fellow humans across the globe; let's fight for justice and equality. All of which I support. It would be most ideal to me if we could all do natural science (bring about material transformation) and social science (bring about social transformation); but even more ideal, however, would be for us to act and engage ourselves in social jurisdictions where optimal positive social transformation can be realized. This means doing good deeds, whether as a politician, lawyer, or mathematician; using good linguistic expressions (and no, shouting "you lie" and/or "baby killer" in public political jurisdictions don't qualify) whether as a journalist, news anchor, and/or computer scientist. And I'd much rather have people go about and do these things, whatever they can (and be creative), then bathe rather mindlessly in the light of Tom's undeniable wisdom.

It's a model of the ENTIRE system, not just the physical. That is what is different about it too. All the rest you're saying here is useful to me, to do something to change the world. It helps to have a bigger database to pull possibilities from to create the change we want to see, in my opinion. It also helps to have a consistent model to share to help others wake up that want to.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

bette, I understand that Tom's model may work well for you, but it isn't the end all be all model of the ENTIRE system, as you called it. If you look at existence the way I do (as shown in my model), there's no need to invoke the "entire system" or subsystems. Doing so only muddies the water because we obscure the simplicity of language by misusing language. Just be a good person (I think you somewhat already are, which is why you enjoy Tom's model in the first place), enjoy life, help others, and try hard not to turn Tom's model into the next religion. In short, use Tom's model to understand your world, if you wish, apply to it what you may, but after that, trash it.

Hello Joey: You are right, there is no need to invoke the "entire system" or subsystems, some of us are curious to undertand the "whys". By having a bigger perspective I can understand things better. It works for me. What is this misusing language you are talking about? May be you don't understand certain things about MBT, and then you just ignore them or put them on the side instead of trying to use your curiosity with an open-minded-skeptic approach.



Every individual has his/her own religion (beliefs). Hey, Joey, it doesn't matter if you trash it or not, it's still in the databases :)

Hey, I just saw you wrote some words in the top. Where can we explore the meanings? You just wanted to promote the name of your book or you also have a web page or something?

Keep it up, working in your TOE.

Clau

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

Hello Clau,

You're right, I probably do have misconceptions about MBT, not having read the books or attend lectures. I am, however, ok with that. As for your question concerning the misuse of language, I don't have a simple answer. An intro. into my way of thinking would be Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations, though the details of my thoughts differ significantly from his. And it's not that I'm not open-minded and skeptical; in fact I am very open-minded and skeptical, which is why I attempted to develop my TOE in the first place.

And Clau, whatever our disagreements, I respectfully do not care to expound on them. I'm at a stage in my life where theorizing and building linguistic models have pretty much exhausted their own limits and all that's left for me to do now is act and engage to bring about positive social transformation. I'm probably one of the nicer people in the world (not evident here of course, especially not through language), but don't care to use language further to try to convince anyone of my opinion of myself.

As for my book, I have two options. Complete it and keep it for myself, or publish it online as an e-book for anyone interested to read free of charge. I don't want my name on it (and my name is certainly not Joey, though you may call me that).

I try to refrain from socializing on the internet; I do not own a facebook or twitter, let alone my own web page. But as soon as I complete the book, yes I do want to promote it, more or less as an extension of Tom's TOE, hence subtitled TOE 2.0, though a TOE from a linguistic perspective. Since language is fundamental to anything that can be expressed in terms of language, it'll be a TOE that subsumes all possible TOEs, even itself. Which is why I want it to be used as only a ladder to an understanding of the world; afterward, I will encourage readers to trash it.

Language is limiting because words are metaphor, they stand for something else. Plus, some linguistics thinkj not being able to talk means you don't have an intelligence (Chomsky), hence my distrust of their info.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

I don't concern myself over what Chomsky thinks, or anyone thinks, only what's useful. We can of course claim that language is a representation of "something else". This claim reminds me of Kant's "noumenon" or the claim that reality as we know it is an illusion simply because it is a representation of the "noumenon". But, as Wittgenstein said, the limits of my language are the limits of my world. Therefore, the reality as we know it might as well be referred to as reality as it is (it is all there ever will be). The same with language. Yes, it is a representation of "something else". But that "something else" cannot be referred to except in terms of language. Therefore, language as a representation of "something else" might as well be language not as a representation of "something else" but as all there practically is.

Well, this is good. I am trying this too. MBT may help on this as well for some. I welcome your ideas. If you can help other people help other people, bring it.

Clau

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

Hey joeysoc03

Can i call you that?
Just one question....If toms theory is so apparently useless why do you feel the outrageous need to tack your own theory onto the end of it?
Just post it bro and let people make up their own minds,i hope your "TOE" stands up to the amount of scrutiny that tom's has.

Wayno

_________________
Obsession is a word used by the idle to describe the dedicated.

Well that's the thing joey, thoughts ARE things, and they are nonphysical. What Wittgenstein said sounds like a PMR limited version of what Tom says, "your belief systems limit your reality to a sub-set of the solution space that does not contain the answer", and joey, I am looking for the answer to changing many social injustices too, so in the big picture we are on the same team.

Have you ever read "Wittgenstein's Poker", it's a great book about a great time in our history. My thoughts on Chomsky are actually a belief of mine, at least I am aware that it is a belief and not something I know. I had meant to read the entire book I formed this belief from reading a section of, but something else took my attention. It's on my "to do" list, as is change the world, like you.

Like I said before my mind doesn't think in the way that would be able to look at your model, it isn't a theory of everything if it doesn't include everything it is a model which is fine, and gain some understanding I did not have before, but that isn't a problem with your model or my neural system, it's that Tom's TOE really is one that my neural system can make almost perfect sense out of because it is whole, it is foundational, fundamental, and I really have been looking for a foundation to build on that was real all of my lives, this is it so far.

Keep up the good fight, it really is a small world and we are working on helping create a better reality for those that are not able to do so all on their own, because it is also a big world out there. The right, or is it left, type of mind will be able to see more in your model than I. The way I think is not a disability unless the social norms are built around some other way of thinking now, and they are. That is now one of my interests, my fights if you will, I have several as that is how I work. We'll talk later I hope, you never know how we are connected besides just here at MBT, or how we may be connected in the future, and stuff. :)
Love to you and yours,
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Sounds good, Clau. I will do my best.

No, I haven't read "Wittgenstein's Poker". I knew that coming in, that we were more or less on the same team. But I am young and a big part of youth, of mine at least, is having the enthusiasm to be proactive, to participate in the political, economic, legal, and academic spheres. This is why I dislike excessive theorizing...in doing so, we ourselves become covert conservatives, ignorant of and/or indifferent to the suffering of millions. And I hate that. My whole family went through a genocide, many died, and I was brought up into a fragmented, isolated "third" world. And I imagine how often this has happened, is happening now, to how many little boys and girls, mothers and fathers, monks and saints, and all I can think about is how I'm not doing enough to change the social conditions they face evey damn day. So yes, we can talk all we want, but I for my part, like you I suppose, am doing something about it.

Hi Joey:

I would like to hear your story. May be you can open a new thread in Wud I say ... You've been through a tough past. I was born in a 3rd world country (Argentina).

Take care,

Clau

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <