1) one concern I have is that PMR appears to be intentionally designed to repress interest in, and awareness of, NPMR.

It seems that PMR is like my back yard. I have an elaborate set of fences with double gates to prevent the dogs from getting outside and killing themselves on the street. This constraint is for their own good and protection. There appear to be a few ways to get out of the yard. The lawn guy might leave a gate open in error, and a dog may wander out, which is very dangerous. Someone may come and get the dog and take them out on a leash, which is ok. Another unlikely event would be a dog figuring out the lock and letting themselves out, but if they are that smart, they are likely to know how to cross a street and not get mushed.

2) another concern is that the effectiveness of the PMR experience, may be undermined by this awareness.

It seems that someone or something went to a great deal tof trouble to establish this experience system.

Like if you were to visit Disneyworld and you are going through the various experiences and learning how the different lines work and becoming more efficient at seeing and doing more stuff for the time you have paid for. Various priest dudes might be wandering around selling cheat sheets on how to do it better. Then there is this guy who is talking about the various underground operational tunnels and their entrances and Disney HR policy, unionization efforts, and so on...such that you maybe start to get more interested in Disney politics than going on rides. Is that really a good thing?

3) my big concern is that if I personally start destabilizing the system by promoting this information effectively, I will be weeded from garden.

how sure are you that we are supposed to be promoting this information?

I can think of some plausible answers to this...but I of course would just be guessing.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Claudio, this is so wise!

Lena

_________________
'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.

Great post Tom.

In a few words:

We must encourage, and not push.
We must work from the inside, and not become the opposition.

We must be the Trojan Horse, and conquer from within, not be bashing at the gates in a futile endeavour.

:)

We are all "insiders" somewhere already. I don't feel I am trying to conquer rather than trying to help people wake up from being manipulated. I guess wake up where we are, try to bring those we are "insiders" with along, and expand like reality expands with knowledge to a larger circle.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Just to add another classification of society to that in Tom's excellent 'mission statement' -

1. Those with an awareness of a Big Picture

2. Those with no awareness of a Big Picture
a) those who could be made aware
b) those who will never be made aware

I suppose what we're hopeful of achieving is that 1 + 2(a) will equal or exceed 2(b)

Randy, I think your concerns are answered by the succinct final lines of Tom's which you quote. We have nothing to fear in the sense of 'upsetting' the PMR purpose by trying to achieve the above. The evolutionary process is always the safeguard - if it benefits the system for our aims to be achieved, they will be, as Tom states. If not, then things will proceed as they are, or in some other way - "it will all work out, however it does." Words of great comfort.

I add my voice to RAM's and others, in a vote of thanks to Tom!

Arthur

_________________
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."

Randy: "how sure are you that we are supposed to be promoting this information"?

Arthur is correct.

It is not whether we promote or not, but rather why we promote or not. If the choices we make are based on a positive loving, caring, egoless, fearless intent to the extent our decision space allows, then we are contributing as much to the larger system as we can -- that defines "success" at this point in our development. The system simply deals with us by giving us more opportunities to grow and do better.

Let the LCS decide how the ball bounces and the cookie crumbles -- ours is to take whatever comes and deal with it with an attitude of humble service and support rather than one of arrogant control and manipulation. If we can do this, the larger consciousness system (LCS) will smile upon us and share our joy.

We don't make things happen that the LCS then either likes (rewards) or dislikes (punishes). We participate in an interactive dance with all "other" in the PMR schoolhouse in order to lower our entropy through intent guided choice and the feedback those choices create. Whether you choose to promote MBT or not promote MBT is not that important -- what is important is the intent you express through your choice. After that, what happens happens and we gain new growth opportunities and new choices from the feedback generated. If we do our individual part well, our choices will tend to optimize the whole.

Don't fear jumping in and doing what you think is right just because you are not certain of its rightness - we must live with uncertainty without letting it paralyze us. Mistakes define the path to corrections. Assess the probability of doing more good than harm, evaluate the affect your choices may have on others, study the issues, and come to tentative conclusions. Always remain skeptical of your rightness and open-minded about accepting new information that might modify your choices. Use caution and thoughtfulness to mitigate uncertainty.. and then make your choices bravely and move forward. We learn by trying and assessing the results. The process of growth is iterative and cumulative.

Thinking or believing that you are acting out of love and without fear or ego, is not enough to evolve -- you must actually act out of love without fear or ego to lower your entropy. You must get into the game and play in order to win (evolve). It is false to think that you can't lose if you don't play - not playing always looses.

Randy: "how sure are you that we are supposed to be promoting this information"?

I'm positively sure, but that's my answer -- one that applies to me - you must find your own answer that applies to you.

Tom

Hi, I'm new here and am only about halfway through the books, but I have started reading some of the posts on this forum.

Kroeran's Disney World example was really interesting and made me think about what if that really happened. Kroeran, if you became an expert on optimizing your Disney World experience and then shared that information I think that would be a good thing for everyone, including Disney World.

If you tell me that a particular restaurant or ride is less crowded at a particular time and I choose to use that information to my benefit, everyone wins. Disney World itself would give me that information if I bothered to ask.

The other park guests benefit because I'm not competing with them at a peak time. The waiters and ride attendants could benefit because of your information by having the crowds more spread out through the day. And even if no one else listens, Kroeran and his friends and family will likely benefit, and that doesn't spoil anything for anyone else.

I believe Disney actually does have a "behind the scenes" tour for those who are interested in those underground tunnels. I watched a whole "behind the scenes" tv show on Disney World a few years back.

The other information, like HR policy and unionization efforts, although possibly interesting to hear about, wouldn't be likely to change how I conducted myself during my visit, so I doubt Disney would really care. And unless something really terrible is going on you're not going to be able to get most people interested in anything other than the rides anyways.

Disney is not going to want to "weed you out of the garden" for becoming an expert on how Disney World really works. Actually, it's unlikely that anything you would personally do would have much of an effect on the Disney bottom line. Think about all the former employees, some who are disgruntled, who have "inside information" that might not be entirely favorable to Disney. I don't think Disney is worrying too much about keeping them quiet. If one happens to get some significant publicity, Disney will deal with it through their PR people or lawyers. Who knows, they may even be forced to change a bad policy if they fear a public backlash. Then they'll be seen as "good guys" for taking care of a bad situation within their organization. But they can take care of themselves without "weeding you from the garden".

Kroeran, I feel that if you get MBT information out there it will be of value to those who want to benefit and will have little to no direct effect on anyone else. However, I think it can have a "ripples in the pond" effect. If you personally lower your entropy, you'll have higher quality interactions with those around you, which will in turn help lower their entropy even if they have no direct knowledge of the MBT info. (Just like the other Disney guests benefit when I go there on a day that is less crowded because of the information you gave me.) After all, if entropy in this PMR gets lowered by whatever means, it's a win-win situation all around.

And..if I understand MBT correctly, you and I and everyone else aren't just park guests at Disney World. We each own a couple of shares of Disney stock too.

Anyway, Kroeran, I thought it was a great post. It got me thinking, and I don't think you'll get "weeded from the garden" because you're not a weed.


Jeanne

very satisfying answer, and thanks. Below is just me being greedy and trying to keep the ball bouncing ; - )

so setting aside the issue of building security being alerted to leaking of proprietary information and me being removed....the feedback is nice though, right, when one is in the groove, so to speak? so, yeah, not reward and punishment, more like finding the trail, which has rest stops along the way, rather than bushwhacking through raw forest and picking up thorns and stuff? So, at the local level, we are feedback gatherers, and many if not most have made this link without NPMR/spiritual awareness?

The interactive dance brings to mind a stone polisher, where you throw a bunch of rough stones in a tumbler and spin it around for an hour....they all come out perfectly polished. The lesson here could be that it is TOEish to seek out social as well as experiential intensity?

so life then is moving through a decision tree. The lesson here could be that it is TOEish to be aware of each of these forks in the road, and there are maybe a hundred or so of these each day, and pause and think, and consciously decide?

Question: when I die and pass through the welcome centre, ponder my life and figure out my next incarnation, then do so, what will "I" perceive?
a) filed and gone to black
b) sitting at the NPMR controls of the new video game
c) sucking on my mothers breast and wondering where the hell am I (memory wiped)

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

kroeran,

yes, NPMR awareness is not necessary to lower your entropy through interaction and feedback

Yes, there are lessons generated within interactions of all sorts -- what sort of interactions have the potential to lead to the highest rate of growth, for any individual, at any given point in their evolution, within any given circumstance in any reality frame, depends entirely on the individual.

Yes -- you become what you are through the cumulative and iterative exercise of your intent expressing itself through choice constrained by the given decision space that is generated by your awareness.

c -- However, preparation for C is effected by occasional eaves dropping (from the womb in a general telepathic, holistic osmotic way) on the sounds, feelings, thoughts and emotions of those around you -- globally (the world into which you are comming), but most importantly, mom and immediate family -- like getting the final briefing/indoctrination/acculturation at the intuitive level before an important mission into foreign territory. Then, suddenly, you find yourself sucking on your mothers breast wondering where, what, why, and how the hell you are -- ready to let the rubber of your intent meet the road of PMR without the intellectual encumbrance of old entanglements, biases, beliefs, disappointments, relationships, and expectations.....you go boy!

Tom

as long as I have your attention....

1) so IUOCs are generating FWAUs, and the earth ruleset is generating Sensor Platforms....so what is the governace/decision making process for linking up an FWAU to a Sensor Platform? Are they created (conceived) by the intent of the IUOC?

2) and/or when is the linkage normally made (biologically speaking)....which trimestre?

3) do you start with materially easier incarnations, then work toward incarnations such as kids that are terminal (looking for different or more challenging experiences), or

4) are "apparently" unfavorable incarnations for IUOCs with less resources to trade with?

5) are female incarnations early or late incarnations in the process?

6) how valuable are Sensor Platforms?

7) is there value to (to the chicken) providing life (however short) to farm chickens?

8) for each sentient entity, does someone have to rush around looking for a IOUC to "animate" it?

thanks in advance if you have time to answer!

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

1) Kroeran: "so IUOCs are generating FWAUs, and the earth rule-set is generating Sensor Platforms....so what is the governace/decision making process for linking up an FWAU to a Sensor Platform? Are they created (conceived) by the intent of the IUOC?"

Tom: There are always a few special cases in the margins that don't follow the general rules (information flow) because the Larger consciousness system (LCS) is playing all sides of the game, but generally the flow is something like this: 1) the rule-set allows/requires sensor platforms to reproduce for their own reasons and drives. 2) the more advanced IUOC is looking for a general set of conditions and circumstances that favors specific growth potential for that IUOC and meets its intended goals. The less advanced IUOC is just looking for experience in a general way, and within a very broad range, one set of conditions and circumstances is about as good as another.
The IUOC picks a platform that generally suits its needs. IUOCs that are advanced enough to require very specific circumstances may have to wait until the system brokers a good match or creates a good match through nudging the data sent to the platforms (refer to discussion of synchronicity and manipulating uncertainty at both the macro (behavior, intuition and circumstance) and micro (biological cellular/DNA) levels. Such IUOCs are not in a big hurry and do more extensive up front planning and coordination to get the right general set up they want/need. Plans are usually not terribly detailed because free will makes intricate plans difficult to execute. If the goals are very specific the plan will likely be more specific. Plans, in some circumstances, can be revised and coordinated in real time by the LCS. The LCS's criteria for its decision process is to optimize the reduction of system entropy. Thus PMR opportunities are limited but grow and become more sophisticated and complex as the evolving virtual reality trainer matures and become more sophisticated and complex.

2) Kroeran: and/or when is the linkage normally made (biologically speaking)....which trimestre?

Tom: It is not a 0 to 1 function at some particular time. The FAWU eases into its new role slowly as more of its attention is consumed by available PMR experience. That data flow is constrained by the rule-set -- sparse at first and grows as the platform develops. It parallel processes multiple frames -- with the percentage of its total aware communication (data exchange) in PMR growing until about 5 to 7 years old when that percentage gets close to 100 percent.

3) Kroeran: do you start with materially easier incarnations, then work toward incarnations such as kids that are terminal (looking for different or more challenging experiences)

Tom: Yes. (see discussion above)

4) Kroeran: or are "apparently" unfavorable incarnations for IUOCs with less resources to trade with?

Tom: No. The point is to optimize the LCS, not the individual. The incarnation taken is one that has good potential for the system to grow. Incarnations are interactive and affect many others - the likely total affect is what is generally optimized in potential.

5) Kroeran: are female incarnation's early or late incarnations in the process?

Tom: Neither. Each presents its own challenges and potential and thus each sometimes offers a better choice to an IUOC depending on the nature and circumstances of that IUOC as it evolves. As an IUOCs entropy significantly lowers it makes less and less difference which sex any incarnation takes (the differences in challenge and potential becomes less significant) and choices are often made on individual preference. Thus a sex can be associated with some IUOCs

6) Kroeran: how valuable are Sensor Platforms?

Tom: How valuable are World of Warcraft or SIMS players? Very valuable if you want to play that game. The PMR game is very valuable - it must be an efficient evolution trainer concept because it is widely duplicated and employed with functionally minor variations.

7) Kroeran: is there value to (to the chicken) providing life (however short) to farm chickens?

Tom: Chickens, like people, exist because they are probable according to our rule-set which defines the opportunities PMR has to evolve. And just like people, chickens, have their place in the interactive, interdependent ecosystem. Chickens are sentient beings. Thus, on a fundamental level, what (in terms of consciousness evolution) applies to humans, applies to chickens. They simply have less growth potential and very small decision space compared to people.

8) Kroeran: for each sentient entity, does someone have to rush around looking for a IOUC to "animate" it?

Tom: No one ever runs... there are big signs saying: "Dont Run" and "No Running Allowed" all over the place -- the LCS is very safety conscious. :-).

The consciousness system is very large beyond our comprehension, it can bubble up another part of itself to meet whatever demand is required. If it needed, it could depress the fertility rate with some well placed nudging and synchronicity within the natural uncertainty of the PMR system -- but only if such meddling would be required to optimize the lowering of system entropy in the long term. The LCS does good and careful science and takes the long view (longer and more patient and more forward looking than we can imagine).

Tom

Hello Tom:

It's good to see you back answering questions that expand our learning.



I feel a bit uncomfortable pushing you, but applying what you just said above, I'd like you to answer a question, I had in the beginning of the thread about:

Colors - Understanding Consciousness Sensing, here: http://www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5237

You explained how information in PMR gets translated to the 5 senses, what I'd like to understand is the basics of the senses in NPMR and if possible what are the fundamentals (if they developed just from information or from other features of the Consciousness hardware). Probably some senses in NPMR are easier to explain than others (e.g. colors, compared to feelings, fear,...).

I think we apply our NPMR senses in our interpretation of PMR input (e.g. colors, sensation of motion, etc., etc.).

I think you can answer on that thread, but as long as you answer, I would really appreciate it. I would feel more comfortable when explaining others MBT if I better understand the relationship of NPMR senses to PMR senses and even better how NPMR senses originated. Knowing the last one, I think it is easy to derive PMR senses from it.

Thanks a lot!

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

It's nice to see you posting Tom, thank you for the laugh :)

I am going to just keep going and hog the limelight...no hurt feelings if you need to do something else and can't respond
1==
Tom: The less advanced IUOC is just looking for experience in a general way, and within a very broad range, one set of conditions and circumstances is about as good as another.

kroeran: Q- for your average privaleged westerner, would odds suggest that the next round would be in distinctly "less favorable" circumstances (small picture-wise)? Its not like Norweigians keep coming back as Norweigans, right? You take what they give you and its just as likely to be a labourer in Kenya as a bond trader in Chicago...or actually, more likely to be the former (based on your earlier comments)?
2==
Tom: [re incarnation mechanics] It is not a 0 to 1 function at some particular time. The FAWU eases into its new role slowly as more of its attention is consumed by available PMR experience.

kroeran: Q - I recall you speaking about meeting your children NPMR while they were in womb? Do you have a position on abortion, or is this to much of a divisive issue to be public on? Better question, do you have a position on abortion for yourself or the advice you would give your daughter should she become pregnant under extremely unfavorable circumstances [sorry if that is too personal]? I am pro-choice myself....so I am not trying to bait you.
3==
Kroeran: do you start with materially easier incarnations, then work toward incarnations such as kids that are terminal (looking for different or more challenging experiences) Tom: Yes. (see discussion above)

kroeran: Q: normally, do we work through a linear interative process cycling in one PMR, then graduate, then start over in a less constrained PMR in the same NPMR? Once exhausting the PMRs in this NPMR, do we graduate to a less constrained NPMR, begin again, and so on, fractally?
4==
Tom: The point is to optimize the LCS, not the individual.

kroeran: Q: [This is more of a thought experiment than a genuine sentiment] have you seen the movie "The Thirteeth Floor", where a virtual avatar that thought he was human figures out he is computer code and starts a murdering rampage? Does our FWAU personal self interest necessarily align with the interest of the LCS? Small picture wise, is the higher self or feedback mechanism sort of like a coach/superviser (who's self interest is the team and his career) that we may experience motivation to cheat on?

Is it ethical for the LCS to create FWAUs and subject them to this process for its selfish purpose of quality of consciousness? ; - )
5==
Tom: Thus a sex can be associated with some IUOCs

kroeran: Q-so....IUOCs are personalities that you could have a chat with? the thing that is transitioning after the welcome centre, is that the previous FWAU (with the limited experience set of that incarnation) or the IUOC (accessing all data)? Can an IUOC chat with its FWAU when NPMR, or are they not separate in consciousness, or does that depend on the point in the cycle (PMR, NPMR, Transition, Post Transition)?
6==
Tom: Thus, on a fundamental level, what (in terms of consciousness evolution) applies to humans, applies to chickens.

kroeran: Q-I was just wondering, in your calculations regarding vegetarianism, are you including the loss of sentience volume opportunities that would occur if everyone became vegetarian...this gets at the value or scarcity of (chicken) Sensor Platforms and the fact that the act of farming includes the act of creating the chicken. I am not particularly arguing in favor of meat eating...doing better on a vegetarian diet with a minor health issue due to being prodded by your value system actually. Is the broader issue that we should pay attention to those few issues our own conscience is prodding us on, and not worry too much about issues we are not feeling directly challenged on by the feedback mechanism?
==
Tom: No one ever runs... there are big signs saying: "Dont Run" and "No Running Allowed" all over the place -- the LCS is very safety conscious. :-).

kroeran: Darn, I would have thought the signs would have said "Go nuts, run around with scissors!" ; - )
==
Thanks again for your time and attention.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Whatever you do, no effort should be applied. Is is right for PMR as well?

Lena

_________________
'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.