Hi all. This is more of an issue I have with the whole idea, rather than a rant it's a few immediate problems I find make me extremely skeptical about the idea and even that it COULD be proved subjectively.

My issues are directed to Tom actually, so Tom if you might be so kind as to consider responding that would be ideal... Not to be rude but I'm not really interested in the opinions of others who are just fans, believers or followers, I'm not saying don't respond, of course you're welcome to enter the debate, but my interest is in what Tom thinks.

Ok, my perspective. I'm skeptical, I'm also open minded. I intuitively feel that my consciousness *is*. As far as I'm concerned, the world might or might not be real, but I can certainly suffer or enjoy it's effects either way, so to me the point is moot. As a conscious entity I want to experience good things, and go on experiencing them.. what I mean is, I don't want to suffer or die. I've never seen nor experienced anything I'd call paranormal, but would love to have peace of mind.

So, my first big problem is this. You say that you know all these things and that you're telling us so we can be equipped to go and explore and find out such truths for ourselves. You say it's an important message you're delivering. Surely that's the only conclusion one can come to since you say you learned such truths and you take your experiences global so that others are able to follow suit. So my question is this... if this physical world is a virtual one, created for us to experience things in order to grow, then we opted to come here, essentially blocking out our higher consciousness and memories of other such lives, then why is it important or necessary or even valuable to growth that we find out that this life is in fact a virtual one? Surely, if the system was set up to block such knowledge AND the system was set up to promote growth in a controlled environment, then why would one even attempt to break out of it and seek the place from whence we came? It just doesn't hold water... it's like saying, I need to get 8 hours sleep in order to be optimally rested and then setting your alarm clock to go off at a random point in the night.

Ok. I await the response to that, because for me it's a rather big show stopper.

My other thing is.. now I'd like to prove things for myself, to be honest it scares me. You say the key is to lose all fear and just go on anyway...well, let me tell you, for me you actually MADE me more afraid when you merely hinted at big bad nasty things out there... As an analogy, it's like only seeing glimpses of a womans body, it's kind of more erotic than just seeing the whole thing. You hinting at there being 'bad hombres' more evil than we could imagine but then not saying what or where or who or how it could be dangerous is enough to make me even more fearful. I may or may not be safe here in the physical world but you know what, I have the news, I have peoples testimony, I get educated about things I never need proof of and I am safer and less fearful because I have that information.. now, if nobody ever told me about the world, except there are bad hombres, but also good ones...be lucky.. I'd never leave the house! But it's not like that..

I have other logical issues too.. like whether going out and experiencing another state or non physical world or even other physical ones can even prove anything, even subjectively. After all, another TOE could be that I am the only conscious entity, and that's all I am, and everything is the product of my imagination. Going between worlds and corroborating facts is not even valid in that sense.

So.. any thoughts?

Hi bradrivers, and welcome to Tom's discussion forums. Have you read the books? It doesn't matter except that it will give Tom a better idea of where you are in your understanding if/when he answers, maybe.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Hi..thank you.

I have seen Tom's talks on you tube and am currently reading the books.. so that's where I'm at :)

Brad,

It is not at all necessary to understand these things. The system is designed to work with the participating consciousnesses functioning in complete ignorance and totally unaware. But in essence these are not entirely new concepts. Gautama, the Buddha, based a philosophy on this concept centuries ago. And today, many scientists, particularly quantum physicists are groping towards this as the new paradigm of science. Tom's big TOE serves to minimize the 'groping'. This is an idea whose time has come, if you read these forums and see all of the references to research being done in multiple fields.

You need not be afraid of the bogey men that Tom hinted at 'out there'. You really need to be more afraid of the teenage and up gang in the central city and the suburbs of your own neck of the woods. They are out there. Not to mention the traditional robbers and murderers of our society.

Your last paragraph amounts to solipsism which is defined as follows:
Definition of SOLIPSISM
: a theory holding that the self can know nothing but its own modifications and that the self is the only existent thing; also : extreme egocentrism

Not a widely accepted concept.

Ted

Ted,

Ted : It is not at all necessary to understand these things. The system is designed to work with the participating consciousnesses functioning in complete ignorance and totally unaware. But in essence these are not entirely new concepts. Gautama, the Buddha, based a philosophy on this concept centuries ago. And today, many scientists, particularly quantum physicists are groping towards this as the new paradigm of science. Tom's big TOE serves to minimize the 'groping'. This is an idea whose time has come, if you read these forums and see all of the references to research being done in multiple fields.

Brad : I feel that my point was missed in reading this response Ted. My point is, Tom says we have deliberately chosen to be unaware, and essentially that the groping and the learning is what benefits our consciousness in aiding it's growth. Ok, I could accept that as a theory, but, GIVEN that I accept it's a workable theory, and that I COULD test it.. the ACT of testing it (if it WERE actually true in reality) would circumvent that agreement I would have made with my SELF to go through this life in ignorance of what I already knew. In other words, if it were TRULY beneficial to KNOW these things in this physical life, the 'system' would be such that we came into this reality ALREADY knowing.


Ted : You need not be afraid of the bogey men that Tom hinted at 'out there'. You really need to be more afraid of the teenage and up gang in the central city and the suburbs of your own neck of the woods. They are out there. Not to mention the traditional robbers and murderers of our society.

Brad : Ted, I'm sorry, but with all due respect, I find this response TOTALLY bizarre. It feels wrong to me on so many levels (presuming you are a knower or at least a believer of the Big TOE), I don't know where to begin. Ok, on the human psychology level, obviously 'hinting' at big bad monsters existing and saying 'I've seen them, and they're more ugly and more dangerous and evil than anything on earth', then saying, 'but I'm not telling any more.. go and find out for yourself, if you dare!'.. well... we all know how horror movies work.. it's the anticipation of bad things, knowing they are there but not being told what they are, where they are and how horrible the consequences of coming across one. That is what GENERATES fear. Now on the other hand, I'm NOT afraid of gangs of people, nor murderers. I KNOW what these people look like, where they are likely to hang out, etcera etcetera... if a place is dangerous to visit I can find out before going, if a person is known to be bad I can be informed... the point is, people pass on information about what they know, they teach each other and because of that we are less afraid to go out and interact with the world. I am talking about what generates fear here, not the fact that there are or are not dangerous people. If Tom wanted me to be less fearful he surely shouldn't be using the tactics of horror movie producers in order to assuage fear.. human psychology 101 stuff.
But, the most bizarre thing I find in your statement (from the perspective of the big TOE) is that you suggest I should be more afraid of people in a virtual physical life who are constrained more than other more evil entities in another virtual physical or non-physical life. This makes absolutely no sense from the perspective of the big TOE. And, why *should* I be afraid of a murderer *if* this life is just a virtual learning lab, and having *died* I just go on and carry on with my studies. Surely from that point of view (and the whole point of the big TOE as far as I can see) I should be no more fearful of being murdered than I should of losing a life in a video game.. I mean, do you actually 'know' what Tom 'knows' and still think other humans in your physical learning lab are more dangerous to you than other more 'evil' and more 'powerful' negative entities? Hmmmm.

Ted : Your last paragraph amounts to solipsism which is defined as follows:
Definition of SOLIPSISM
: a theory holding that the self can know nothing but its own modifications and that the self is the only existent thing; also : extreme egocentrism
Not a widely accepted concept.

Brad : Well, I'll accept (and if I'm the only conscious entity, then that's as widely as it *could* be accepted ;)) that in fact nothing aside from my consciousness can be proven. That's a fact of MY existence. :) A silly argument really because it can't be proven or disproven, so I'll let that go. My real point was that I could *experience* what I *think* is subjective proof, but that it *could* be an illusion of my mind.. there's no way around this, so I'll ignore it :)

Brad,

You are missing context in your reading of MBT. We do not come in here in ignorance because it enhances learning. The functioning of PMR to reduce entropy and improve Quality of Consciousness comes automatically from the built in interaction and high level feedback from those interactions. We come in here in ignorance because that is necessary to our functioning within and according to the PMR rule set. This is a Virtual Physical Reality into which we are born and we exit by death. All illusion and a product of the rule set. We have agreed that a session through the PMR VR would be good for our development and chosen to experience one such new PMR experience packet. We accept the necessity, under the normal rules and parameters of operation, that we will be ignorant of the rest of the Consciousness System during that experience. But through recorded history, this forgetfulness has not been perfect, whether from a system glitch or the deliberate major efforts of a participant to wake up. Still, this occurs only for a small percentage of participants. They system does not try to be perfect, only 'good enough'.

Again with regard to 'bogey men' in NPMR, you are missing context. Tom made clear that the interaction of a normal NPMR being or you as a PMR 'resident' visiting NPMR are HIGHLY unlikely to come into contact with said bogey men. You are not likely to run into them unless you go looking for trouble. They will not be attracted to you. Again, as you said for PMR, you can't be killed in reality. They can do damage to your consciousness, but if you don't go looking for trouble, you should not find any. This is basically the same thing that you said about PMR. Don't go in the dangerous places looking for trouble. This is in his book and somewhere on these forums. Do some searching for posts by twcjr and spend some time looking at the short excerpts. Also do a search for specific words with Tom as the author. If you find a list of such posts, send it to me and I will put it up in the reference section. If you would take time to look there, you might even find something already collected that you would find useful.

Tom is not teaching us about the reality in order that we decide to take risks as it doesn't really matter. You should continue to take PMR on face value and not go in for risks because you are no longer afraid to die. Loosing fear of death is one thing, just replace it with a sense of responsibility for continuing your normal life path because of the value to those who care about you and with whom you interact. These interactions on the basis of caring are what the VR is all about in terms of training.

Ted

Brad - I'll take a stab here. From reading your posts what I get is FEAR, FEAR, FEAR. Tom says that you don't have to explore NPMR to lower your entropy. I doubt that the famous great movers and shakers have ever had an OBE. What is important is to live your life evolving toward LOVE. Because you will either evolve or de-evolve. If you understand that and don't want to go any farther that is enough.

For many of us that isn't enough. We are wanderers and explorers. We have had paranormal experiences and we want to know the hows and whys. I personally am quite a fraidy cat. I never watch anything scary on TV or at the movies. I don't like scary rides at amusement parks. But I do want to explore NPMR and understand PMR. I am fairly cautious in my personal life. I wouldn't go to the grocery store late at night by myself etc. Tom tells us that there are all kinds of conscious entities in NPMR just as in PMR. More so than PMR because consciousness in NPMR is more abundant and varied. But he also says over and over that you could be mugged walking in the park in broad daylight. The odds are slim but the probability isn't zero. It is the same for exploration in NPMR. He also warns that if you explore NPMR with a high level of fear you will meet your fear one way or the other.

Imagine Lewis and Clark exploring past the Mississippi. There is a very good documentary on this. Imagine only having very rudimentary maps. Lewis and Clark described 178 new plants and 122 new animal (including sub-species.) Most people on the east coast had no desire to explore into the wilderness. But it was still there and full of life - including the indigenous Indians.

There are some people that can't fly because they are so fearful the plane will crash. Again the odds are long but they aren't zero. Then others fly all around the world without ever giving it a thought. Tom is giving the same analogy. Really you shouldn't be afraid your consciousness is going to disappear if you are murdered. It is another thing to realize the value of your present PMR experience. You naturally want to live your PMR experience to the max and you want to stay with your family.

MBT has some radical ideas from what most of us have thought previously. Even more so for people who have not explored metaphysics in detail before. You are obviously drawn to all this for a reason. Keep exploring if you want to. If it gets to uncomfortable - let it go. It might not be the right time for you.

Linda

Hi Brad:

Welcome to the board. You are missing and important thing that I would like you to consider. We are part of a system that is very intelligent. The main mission is not to limit our experience with a complete constrained rigid structure but rather to help in the evolution of the system and the evolution of each IUOC (Individuated Unit of Consciousness).

If you see the perspective from the ones running the show, they may customize the rules to help in the main purpose. The system does not follow a typical military system, where you are supposed to follow exactly certain mission and are not supposed to alter that. The system (let's call it CS: Consciousness System) keeps facilitating your own evolution and if you show interest to expand yourself they will watch that and see how far can you go. You are also a creator of your reality in this type of system. If you have something you would like to accomplish the system will attract to you what you need to learn the lessons that will help your evolution. Those can be tricky, because they may make some things easier for you and others more difficult, but they are flexible and if you persist on something you may get it. CS will give you more as they see you are ready. If you want to get a driver license and you are 15 and you want to get it at 16, CS will give you the keys if CS thinks the keys will provide you experiences that will help you evolve and will help the evolution of the system.

Read this thread: http://www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=34

Brad, don't take it bad, but a lot of people have what is called "fear of the unknown", we tend to use here the term "fear of uncertainty". It is very common, and actually that is used by religions to recruit members because of that fear. When you explore meditation and NPMR in general, it helps you overcome that fear.

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

That was a very nice post Linda, good job in my opinion. "Like" :)
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Thanks Bette.

I found an applicable quote from Tom. Sorry I don't know where. It is just in my "favorite quotes" that I collect.

"A man who will not leave his room because he does not know how, or is afraid to open the door, is trapped just the same whether or not the door is locked".

"Simply walk fearlessly with love into whatever comes and everything will come out right. The larger consciousness system takes care of its own – no soldier is left behind."

Good quotes Linda. I use the first one often and the second one actually came to me from a PM from Tom as I asked him a question about if I or some other being evolve more than others if we can always "come back" to the loved ones we left behind.

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

Thank you all for taking the time and effort to respond...

I find this forum difficult to post replies to, since I can't see the posts above... so, I'll try to tackle the few things that are on my mind from reading your replies..

Ted, your response regarding the system being just good enough, essentially does gel with me and makes sense.. I guess I need to wait until I've finished reading the books before I attempt to tackle the theory as presented, perhaps it didn't come across as fully in the lecture on you tube as it does in the books.. so I'm happy to say ok, I'll admit I might have jumped the gun... I'll keep you posted :)

Now, the posts regarding fear.. well, I'm not a particularly fearful person in life, and yes, quite rightly said, my issue is fear regarding the unknown, particularly after 40 years of conditioning in this life about spooky, demonic or evil entities. But my point seems to be continually passed over. My point is, I am afraid of the unknown.. and how do we conquer that fear, well, we either make it known or we obtain ways of protecting ourselves to the degree where we feel secure enough to live in a fruitful and fulfilling manner. BUT! First we try to get as much information from OTHERS who have been there as possible.. to get a FEEL for it, to get information, as much as possible.
I'll turn the problem into something mundane... Imagine I tell you that there is a field of mushrooms, some will give you health beyond common medicine, but some will kill you, or at least make you suffer... Now, I point to a field... off you go.... oh, and by the way, don't be afraid...

"What?", you ask... "tell me more!! You've eaten these mushrooms.. what do they look like? Is there an antidote to the poisonous ones? Is there a special technique to finding them? Are they all together? Details details.. I want details before I even TOUCH one!"

Ok.. I can't find the words to explain this paradox any more.. but in my very personal opinion, ie, it had this effect on me.. Tom's way of suggesting I could be harmed, maybe, possibly.. and yet leaving me no clue as to what, how, what signs to look for, what at least to expect.. its just built up my fear instead of helping me to lose it. Can't you see? Maybe some of you had paranormal experiences without willing them to happen and so automatically had a basis for being less fearful.. but I haven't. I have a lifetime of conditioning (which I don't BELIEVE, I hasten to add.. but acknowledge that it has conditioned me to be fearful of the unknown).

As far as what I'm ready for.. well, I've been drawn to the need to satisfy my inner sensation that my consciousness is not a product of the physical, but that it's the other way around. I need to do this.. but I need information to work on, and the same level and quality information I'd make sure to get if I were about to head into a field of mushrooms to pick dinner. ie, someone else's experience, shared, fully and openly.

Telling me to let go of fear really isn't going to work with me.. I want to 'know' what you know from your personal accounts, I'll evaluate my risks only then and make the choice to venture on... otherwise I'd be pretty stupid to just head out into that jungle alone... As far as that story goes, lots of people died trying to break frontiers.. so please, don't make out that the lack of fear was all good.

Okay, this isn't going to fix your fear, but, we don't really die in any reality frame NPMR or this one. In this one, this PMR (and probably other PMRs we may have a bit of our IUOC working in), when our character "dies" what is really us continues. Of course you may think, well that doesn't help. It won't until it is Real to you, and what makes it real probably is experiencing that the body is just the suitcase when you can see the Bigger Picture that ingesting MBT, finding it fill in or make Bigger YOUR Reality, can do so efficiently (for me). It's the Virtual Reality aspect you probably find yourself stuck on, it takes a while, but you will get glimpses, and stuff, once you know what to look for. It's just data.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Correct Bette, it won't fix my fear :)

I guess I'll wait until someone sheds some light before venturing out into the dark...

I'll keep reading though.. it gels with my intuition in many aspects, but really, I'm never one to accept dogma or anything on faith.

I still wonder what Tom has to say... obviously if Tom's desired effect was to assuage fear rather than evoke it, from what I got so far it didn't work for me. Tom?

Brad - you can see some of the posts if you scroll to the end of the page.


Thomas Campbell's Guide to NPMR - "See all the fun sites and dine at the best restaurants" - is never going to be available. Many here have wanted one. Your journey in what ever VR you find yourself in - be it PMR or NPMR - is a subjective experience. It won't be the same as mine and it won't be the same as Tom's. If you become an efficient explorer, Tom may discuss your travels with you. Otherwise he feels that it is entertainment and not educational.

Doesn't fear always come from the unknown? If you knew that plane was going to land safely, you wouldn't be afraid to fly. It is the small chance that the plane will crash that makes you not want to fly. So really all fears come from the place of the unknown. You are coupling that with negative entities to scare yourself silly. You can arm yourself with the best guide books and maps to Paris, but that won't help you if some deranged individual jumps out of a side street and mugs you. The chances of that are very low, but they are not zero. Are you going to be the kind of person that never want to go to Paris because something bad may happen to you? If you are that is OK. Stay home and try and be safe. But bad things can happen to you in your home, however remote the possibility.

In most cases high entropy entities are attracted to other high entropy consciousness.

We all have many tests along our path to evolution. In one of Whitley Streiber's podcasts he tells a story of waking up in the middle of the night to see a huge black spider hanging in the corner of his bedroom. He was terrified and for a moment he just wanted to bolt out of bed and run. But he was afraid to leave his wife sleeping peacefully next to him. So he decided to stay and try and protect her if he could. The spider disappeared. He knew it had been a test. Fear - it can hit you anywhere.