Moji: "Is it the best we can do to be who we are and gladly take our lumps so we can do it a little better next time? How else could it be?"

Yes, exactly so -- a good point to add to this discussion of how choice and intent drives growth and expresses itself locally through action (within a feedback generating virtual reality) which in turn drives additional learning opportunity.

Tom wrote:
"Perhaps, practically speaking, it is extremely unlikely that he could be helped to evolve positively during this lifetime, and that any help you give him is extremely likely to help him continue his evil abuse of others. Perhaps he is not at all like you -- what then? "

Think this is the same line of thought that MojiDoji has, correct me if I'm wrong.

I'd make that mistake, hopefully learn from it, and grow. The unfortunate side effect would be that others suffer for my mistake. Yet I've suffered from others who make mistakes also. It's why I value forgiveness. Maybe forgiveness is the understanding that we all will have the inevitable experience of making mistakes?

The song goes "if only I had a brain" :) , or more on topic "if only I had Wisdom". Wisdom is the(?) necessary component in making good decisions, something that I often lack. Maybe something on the line of what Roland said would help in that direction?

Is intent a fractal of something greater? Sometimes I think the fuzziness is a slight awareness of something that is connected to what's being focused on. Hopefully this example will explain things.

Compassion is patient, and humble.

Patients is humble, and compassionate.

Humility is compassionate, and patient.

They all seem to be fractals of something greater, simultaneously exhibiting the qualities of the other. "If" this is true, then in our efforts to become compassion shouldn't we also consider becoming Humility, and Patients? There is a belief (work in progress) that Wisdom, Truth, Love, Charity, and a few more are all one in the same.

If I truly desire to act compassionately to the man, then I also must act wisely. Or! am I over thinking this becoming/acting stuff with the use of fractals?

Shin.

According to the way I define my words, patience, humility, compassion, caring, etc. are all expressions of love. We be those things, as is appropriate, when we be love. Love is the natural state of being of a very low entropy consciousness. The greater our growth, the higher our quality, the more evolved our consciousness, the more spiritual we are, the lower our entropy, the more our intent is rooted in love; the more our existence becomes an expression of love; The closer we are to outgrowing the constraints that define our individuation and create our separateness. When we grow enough to merge with AUM, we do not lose our memory or our history. We are still the uniquely evolved result of that unique entity experiencing a unique growth path -- what we lose is our ego and our separateness -- we become love, one with all that is, fully aware of our connectedness to everything. A clear goal-- but don't hold your breath till that happens -- it may take a while. What happens next is, once again, beyond our knowing (outside the basis of our logic) but some possibilities are discussed in Chapter 32 of book 1

Tom C

Forgive my ramblings, it helps me to write it all down. :)

When the result of intent followed by action has a fractal effect on the patterns of experience, that seems to make it a harder decision for me to make. I guess what makes it fuzzy for me is looking at the fractal patterns of probability generated by the action. After getting a feel for the generated probabilities and examining my intent for hidden ego, I listen through my NPMR self for any advice from my guides and then act. Once the decision is made you must let go of self doubt and learn from the results weighed against your own perception of the patterns.

This sounds like a slow process, but it gets easier, faster, and more accurate with practice, and seems to purify my intent. The actions taken usually are mis-interpreted by other people, but the positive results are real. The fuzziness in me comes from the limits in my ability to query the probability patterns and interpret advice from my guides. Overcoming ego generated fear, learning from your mistakes and refining application of intent are what the warrior's path means to me.

When an action is likely to cause a large ripple of change in the fabric of PMR, we must examine our intent for clarity as best we can, and then act to bring the most positive change for all things affected by our action. As we move forward and lower our entropy, we see farther into the patterns. Big choices now are small choices later. Big choices later are overwhelming now. The challenge moves on and we evolve and grow. What a complex learning game AUM dreamed up for us to play! Most of the time I truly enjoy it!

_________________
always, John

Stroker,

It's true that sometimes the possibly outcome of our actions, regardless the purity of our intent, can be disastrous for us or for others. The outcome isn't for us to decide, though - we simply can't know the unknowable and so we have to go with what we've got. Our intentions are truly what's important and are our sole responsibility in our doings in the world. Although some may never have to make choices affecting more than their own reality, other's actions can have immense impact, but in the end they are equivalent because they are based on intent. Of course everyone is going to weigh possibilities, question themselves, question others, and seek more information - as they should - and as you say, "Once the decision is made you must let go...". Your situation determines your decision space, you determine your intent, and reality produces an outcome. What is beyond your reach is out of your control, but what is within your reach is your domain and your responsibility and it is all equal because your intent the only thing that matters to the direction of your entropy.

What I think I mean is that every decision is equally important, so make them all with equal care.

Hi Moji. A little fan mail your way. I read all the threads on the forum to glean a little more info outside the MBT framework before I began posting, and I greatly admire your contributions for their clarity and insight. They teach me about my own perceptions. :)

I agree that all decisions large and small are equally important to us who make them. I try to give care to the ones with most wide ranging effect because the hidden aspects of ego creep in and need to be recognized for what they are. Logic and intuition working hand in hand have greater accuracy for me than either do alone.
Out of multiple probable outcomes, the decision nearest matching true intent is the one I look for. As you say, the consequences of any, especially large ones is beyond our reasoning ability. Motivation for say, helping a child, is an easy choice and still the ripple of change will be beyond our knowing. The knowledge of area of affect is directly proportional to our ability to see a bigger picture, and our challenge is to keep our hidden ego out of the decision. When I see multiple probabilities, intuition must lead me to the correct path for me, and observed effect of the choice guide me in clarifying the signal of my intuition. This method has led me to a greater understanding and statistically better odds of balancing PMR logic, practicality, and NPMR insight. I think perhaps this is my optimum growth path in reducing ego input into intent.

I think that no matter how far we see into the patterns, the edges remain unknowable and fuzzy. Free will of those involved and other unforeseeable circustance can always alter the probabilities. Personal growth by refining intent and incorporating it into our being is my path to follow. I know this is all clear to you, my friend. I'm writing it down to help my PMR application and hopefully to help others clarify their own fuzzy areas. We are all operating at the edge of current personal understanding and observed, repeatable results increases our ability to become our true intent. Positive feedback reinforces positive action.

Everyone: Pointing out flaws in my assessments helps me learn to communicate these difficult subjects, and examine my own understanding for flaws to address. I appreciate input from the members of this forum. Thank you!

_________________
always, John

John,

Thanks for the kind words. I probably get more positive feedback from my posts than I deserve, but I am satisfied if people can find profitability from reading about my trials and tribulations. While we often spend most of our time here asking questions about some aspect of the theory or about how to do something we'd like to do, it's the stories of our efforts and how we've overcome our limitations that I think resonate most deeply with us. If I was a bit more humble and less concerned with how others might think of me, I could probably write some real howlers - hopefully I can muster the courage to reach that point because I think it's much easier to get something out of watching a fool than from being made a fool. And who doesn't like a good laugh?

[quote="twcjr"]Shin.

According to the way I define my words, patients, humility, compassion, caring, etc. are all expressions of love. We be those things, as is appropriate, when we be love. Love is the natural state of being of a very low entropy consciousness. The greater our growth, the higher our quality, the more evolved our consciousness, the more spiritual we are, the lower our entropy, the more our intent is rooted in love; the more our existence becomes an expression of love; The closer we are to outgrowing the constraints that define our individuation and create our separateness. When we grow enough to merge with AUM, we do not lose our memory or our history. We are still the uniquely evolved result of that unique entity experiencing a unique growth path -- what we lose is our ego and our separateness -- we become love, one with all that is, fully aware of our connectedness to everything. A clear goal-- but don't hold your breath till that happens -- it may take a while. What happens next is, once again, beyond our knowing (outside the basis of our logic) but some possibilities are discussed in Chapter 32 of book 1

Tom C[/quote]

Before I read MBT, there was a sense that everything was familiar. At times it was getting to the point I knew who strangers where, and what was going to happen next. Not so much as seeing the future, but the familiarity of experiencing before hand... if that makes any sense. Chapter 32 reflects that feeling, as the only difference is scope. Beginning to wonder if everything is the same. Is there anything truly outside of the Fundamental Process? Putting it into the analogy of color. There are many many shades of color, and one can easily see the difference between them. Yet ultimately they are all... color.

If this is the case, then could the "boot strapping" be nothing more than placing things in order? After reading MBT, sin/wrong doing doesn't exist as defined "something evil". Instead sin/wrong is more of something being out of place, such as an act that is done in the wrong place at the wrong time. The act may seem evil, but isn't, just not in it's proper place.

Lowering entropy then would be converting the static into a clear signal (think you said that before) by giving it an order. The most defined, and clearest of all signals would be AUM. AUM would then be the final goal we can achieve, or become. Guess that would be the only time we can become aware of what's truly outside. To know if we are a bacterium in an AUMasorus

>>Before I read MBT, there was a sense that everything was familiar...Beginning to wonder if everything is the same.<<

You might have been the same, but the universe is vast and incomprehensible because we are small and limited. Tom's descriptions of processes on grand scales can obscure the virtually limitless array of possibilities that exist if one takes them literally. Keep in mind that behind what he describes is something that is literally beyond our ability to know - it is orders of magnitude stranger that anything we can fathom.

However, it is probably all the same on some level nearly infinitely beyond our reach.

>>Is there anything truly outside of the Fundamental Process?<<

By definition, no. If something were outside the fundamental process then the origin of the erstwhile fundamental process and the new "thing" would be the fundamental process.

>>If this is the case, then could the "boot strapping" be nothing more than placing things in order? After reading MBT, sin/wrong doing doesn't exist as defined "something evil". Instead sin/wrong is more of something being out of place, such as an act that is done in the wrong place at the wrong time. The act may seem evil, but isn't, just not in it's proper place. <<

In a way, increasing the quality of one's consciousness is "placing things in order", but bootstrapping is about courage, gumption, and tenacity. The rightness of our actions comes down to our intent - you're correct that actions can't be judged without considering intent because without intent they are just things that have happened, like getting hit by a meteorite. So saying that an action (without consideration of intent) is right or wrong is undefined - it doesn't have any meaning. Intent is the only metric when considering increasing consciousness quality - everything else is just perspective.

I think Tom actually said that lowering entropy is analogous to increasing signal-to-noise ratio. If he didn't, I think he would agree that it is. It is probably our goal to become "one" with AUM, but I can't say so for sure. I'm too busy tangling with my own short-comings and whether I'm responding to you to help you with clarity on a topic or to try to prove to you that I am knowledgeable to worry too much about things like merging with AUM - that, and I honestly don't know.

Tom or anyone who would give me a pointer (60% through book 2).

Me being a huge skeptic of the nature of my being, can not find the middle-ground between lowering my own entropy because it benefits myself, and lowering my entropy because it benefits others. Are the two mutally connected and logical? Some people around me do not agree, and I respect them enough to take it into consideration.

Some people in my life are still really critical of me and second guessing my intent as something I'm doing for myself, over doing it for someone elses benefit (associating with hardcore existentionalists is difficult!). Very few friends I discuss the MBT series with, are interested in what I am doing because they know me well enough to pick out things I don't notice regarding my own ego and fear, which makes me look like a hypocrite and selfish in their eyes, which is not my intent. I know I'm not perfect, but I try and live as comfortably and un-selfish as possible, but others just don't see it.

I do focus my intent on compassion, care and wanting to see the best for people close to me (humanity in general). But where is the fine line between gaging myself and listening to other people gauge me? Or, how do I combine the two without ego stepping in the way of clear vision?

Or am I just just missing something based on ego? It's not a fear of doing something wrong, it's the concern that I am leading people astray based on my ego-clouded vision, which I am coming to terms with.

I want the best for people around me, but sometimes I'm wondering if it's actually something I'm doing based on too much focus on myself. After all, it's MY own entropy I'm lowering, not anyone elses.

I expected alot of questions with slow steady answers with this book series, but I cant stop wondering; is too much skepticism of myself really too much?.

I will continue on and keep reading, but I just can't seem to rest these questions with are constantly chipping at me.

Toby,

You’ve posed quite a question. The ramification of your logic is that it should not be possible to lower one’s entropy because one benefits from entropy reduction, making any desire to reduce one’s entropy a selfish act. Given this, the only acts which could offer entropy reduction are acts of complete self-sacrifice.

Is this about right?

If so, it would seem that only unappealing acts can offer any hope of reducing one’s entropy, but then entropy reduction becomes the carrot on the stick and so even knowing about the possibility of it taints every action. What a dilemma! How can people ever become better?

This line of reasoning is the logical equivalent of removing all of the parts of your car because they will all eventually break and thinking you’ll have an unbreakable car when you’re done.

Entropy reduction is about having the courage to pull yourself up by your bootstraps beginning with what is available to you — including all of the flaws. Receiving benefits and expressing the quality of your consciousness are not mutually exclusive — they are unrelated. The metric for reducing your entropy is love, not benefits foregone. It is a question of your intent, not the presupposition of it based on a belief about the possibilities. If overall entropy is reduced by the actions of an individuated unit of consciousness, whether or not individual benefits were received is irrelevant. Does this make sense?

Like any other process, the process of consciousness evolution motivates us to move from one state to another. We start as fear-based high-entropy consciousnesses and move towards being low-entropy consciousnesses who express love. The universe is filled with beings at all stages in this process (there are far more than two possible states). Our actions reflect how far in this process we have come; everything we do is a representation of the degree to which we have progressed. This process mirrors what we see in PMR, everything exists in a state of flux — in a process of evolving incrementally, one small step at a time. The fundamental process drives us towards more profitable states.

Can you see how this differs from using the metric of benefits foregone? In that system, actions are either selfish or they are altruistic — one extreme or the other. Of course there is no possibility of entropy reduction — the number of possible states appears to be exactly two! But is this really the best description of the reality we see?

It sounds to me like you are on the right track and headed in the right direction. Use your friend’s feedback, but do not take it too seriously. Consider this — Are your friends telling you that you are a selfish hypocrite because they are making an honest effort to help you, or because they wish to prove you wrong? Of course, you must consider the feedback of others, but do not rely on it solely. It is indeed your consciousness and it is your responsibility. Taste the pudding yourself and give it time. If you are making progress, I think it is likely that the nature of the feedback will change.

>> I expected alot of questions with slow steady answers with this book series, but I cant stop wondering; is too much skepticism of myself really too much?.<<

Of course there is such a thing as too much skepticism — one can reject all conclusions, even the tentative ones that get you by day-to-day. Don't let fear immobilize you. At some point decisions must be made, and since you do not/cannot have all of the data to make the perfect decision, sometimes you just have to wing it. Listen to your intuition when reason fails you. However, I don't think it’s your skepticism that is in the way.

-Moji

TobyH,

TobyH: Me being a huge skeptic of the nature of my being, can not find the middle-ground between lowering my own entropy because it benefits myself, and lowering my entropy because it benefits others. Are the two mutually connected and logical?

Tom: Short answer: Yes, the two mutually connected and logical. They are mutually supportive and each can be the logical consequence of the other.

Longer answer: your confusion (and your friends confusion) is one of perspective.

From the perspective of the Big Picture, it is a fact that for most of us, most of the time, the biggest, best, and most direct thing we can do to help others is to decrease our own entropy (evolve the quality of our consciousness). In the Big Picture, growing up, evolving, becoming love is the goal (love is about others not self). You cannot make anyone else grow up, you can only encourage them to grow themselves -- change themselves by lowering their own entropy. Making them more or less happy and comfortable in PMR is irrelevant unless doing so helps them grow spiritually (evolve the quality of their consciousness). You can only indirectly help others evolve their quality if you have evolved your own. You cannot teach what you do not know. You cannot help others be what you are not.

The big Picture is the perspective of Big Truth -- what is fundamental, what truly matters in the larger sense. Intent is the motive force (the thing that makes a difference, that causes change) in the Big Picture.

The little picture perspective, without a Big Picture perspective to guide it, is the perspective of ego, needs, wants, desires, and expectations. Action, doing, or deeds is the motive force (the thing that makes a difference, that causes change) in the little picture. A deep-dish existentialist sees no other existence except the little picture. To them the little picture is the whole picture. From the perspective of the little picture, your deeds must be either self serving (selfish), serve others (altruistic) or serve no one (trivial). A good person with some intuitive understanding of the larger reality trying to improve themselves who is trapped within this extremely limited viewpoint (reality frame) may come to believe that doing altruistic deeds (acting altruistically) is the only viable growth path since selfishness obviously leads to self-centered ego indulgence -- their intuition says that a self-centered focus is contrary to love, a detriment to progress.

False little picture logic creates a catch 22 for the would be altruist. Any effort to improve themselves is selfish, yet to be truly altruistic requires self improvement. Logic dictates that one must be selfish to avoid being selfish. The logical conclusion is that altruism is a fraud. People may try to act altruistic to impress themselves or others or because they think they should act that way, but nobody is actually altruistic. Altruism is a fantasy, a logical and practical impossibility, a theoretical concept only. Logically, that leaves only two actual states of being: selfish and trivial. That is the fundamental belief of existentialism, objectivism, and many other isms -- stated or non-stated. One may rationally act with kindness because one may wish to live in a kind world -- i.e., kindness is practical and self serving.

If you accept the limited little picture view of reality and the limited logic that goes with it, then, by that logic, there is nothing other than the little picture, intent is irrelevant, action is all, there is no larger purpose, spiritual growth is a fantasy, and the self is the fundamental reality. That is why many logical (smart) people who are trapped in the little picture end up with these beliefs. Yet, whether they admit it or not, their intuition knows better. That is why many deny the intuition along with emotional content and suppress both as an unreliable trick of the brain.

If one accepts their limited view and limited logic one will always end up with the same limited answer, just as they do. It is a trap — a dead end that goes nowhere.

Tom C

MojiDoji, Tom, thank you for the replies.

I understand what both of you are saying, and it makes alot of sense to me. I know I have to dig deep and pull myself up. That's the challenge. But sometimes when I don't get logical feedback from others, I second guess myself too much to dig myself out of a sticky hole of a chipping question.

Again, thank you both for the helping hand.

[quote="Stroker"]Everyone: Pointing out flaws in my assessments helps me learn to communicate these difficult subjects, and examine my own understanding for flaws to address. I appreciate input from the members of this forum. Thank you![/quote]

Consider that to be the hallmark of a true truth seeker. One who's willing to be wrong in order to be right, or in other words to know the real truth with whatever it cost and burdens it bears. Really getting to like this group :)

With that in mind and thinking of TobyH... Can't say much beyond what Moji, and Tom have. From personal experience, I looked for criticisms of my beliefs, facts, and assumptions. By doing so, I'd get a different view. This helped either reinforce those beliefs/facts or tear them down. The ultimate goal was real truth. With enough experience, I noticed how critics where in themselves, very biased and closed minded. Eventually knowing their true intent, it was relatively easy to determine weather their "point of view" was worth keeping, or trashing.

[quote="MojiDoji"]>>Before I read MBT, there was a sense that everything was familiar...Beginning to wonder if everything is the same.<<

You might have been the same, but the universe is vast and incomprehensible because we are small and limited. Tom's descriptions of processes on grand scales can obscure the virtually limitless array of possibilities that exist if one takes them literally. Keep in mind that behind what he describes is something that is literally beyond our ability to know - it is orders of magnitude stranger that anything we can fathom.

However, it is probably all the same on some level nearly infinitely beyond our reach. [/quote]

Are you sure? Agree with what you are saying, but when looking at it, I subtract all the variation, and possibilities to look for the root cause/existence. Color is very simple, wile the range of colors is as vast as the universe with much that our optics can not see. Yet again it's simply color. Don't want to get caught up in magnitudes, and variety of choices. Have been looking for the very foundation of all things. "God" provided by religion, was an excellent place to start looking. God created all things, so where better to look for the answer. Then you find out that religion is a lot of (edit: belief trap), you find your still stuck without an answer. Consciousness/Spirit appears to be the only real thing, wile The Fundamental Process is the cause that gives us "magnitude" of possibilities. BUT! what the heck is consciousness? What is the substance (yup PMR thought) of AUO. The question "what am I" asked by AUO that evolved it into AUM is running through me (note: don't know if that happened just seemed logical). What is "THIS" that I am?

One can be anything with the proper knowledge, and effort. It's not so much as becoming something, but finding out what that something is?

Sorry for the headache :(

Off Topic:

[quote="MojiDoji"] I'm too busy tangling with my own short-comings and whether I'm responding to you to help you with clarity on a topic or to try to prove to you that I am knowledgeable to worry too much about things like merging with AUM - that, and I honestly don't know.[/quote]

Do you consider it may be an attempt to get attention? I ask that, because it seems I'm doing it of late. Posting "look at me look at me" all the wile thinking that I'm trying to be helpful, and participate in discussions. Very odd for being a loner. Maybe it has to do with people that I admire. I don't know... makes me feel a little childish and annoying. Sorry I'll promise to grow up some day :)

(I worry a little as to not offend, it's not the intent. A habit of observing others actions to observe myself.)

>>Are you sure? Agree with what you are saying, but when looking at it, I subtract all the variation, and possibilities to look for the root cause/existence. Color is very simple, wile the range of colors is as vast as the universe with much that our optics can not see. Yet again it's simply color. Don't want to get caught up in magnitudes and variety of choices<<

I’m not sure. It’s all the same or it’s a realm of infinite variety, depending on how I look at it. I can think about the essence of reality and the grand design of it all and can derive satisfaction from doing so. But, I also like music, stories, people’s funny little quirks, and I like to laugh. Sure, music is a set of tones organized into patterns, but it isn't just that because music isn't just musical notation and music theory — the music is the playing part and how we feel about what we hear. Music without the playing is just bits, but the bits are not music. No matter how detailed the description of a song is, without hearing it one can't know what it is.

>> Then you find out that religion is a lot of (edit: belief trap), you find your still stuck without an answer. Consciousness/Spirit appears to be the only real thing, wile The Fundamental Process is the cause that gives us "magnitude" of possibilities. BUT! what the heck is consciousness? What is the substance (yup PMR thought) of AUO. The question "what am I" asked by AUO that evolved it into AUM is running through me (note: don't know if that happened just seemed logical). What is "THIS" that I am?<<

You’re a pickle and AUM is pickle juice. Now, go into the world and increase your pickliness.

>> Do you consider it may be an attempt to get attention?<<

Yes, I tend to be something of a show-off. But…

>>I ask that, because it seems I'm doing it of late. Posting "look at me look at me" all the wile thinking that I'm trying to be helpful, and participate in discussions. Very odd for being a loner. Maybe it has to do with people that I admire. I don't know... makes me feel a little childish and annoying. Sorry I'll promise to grow up some day :)<<

We must interact in order to grow. Holding back because we fear our egos will ultimately make our situation worse. Of course, we should consider what we are doing and why we feel the need to do it, but while we may fool people some of the time, we cannot fool reality into thinking that we are anything more than we are. So, we must muster our courage, drop our fears, and try to do the best we can do. Every time I post something, I wonder what more advanced beings think about me. Silly, eh? It’s illogical and against everything I stand for, but it is a perfect representation of my quality and I would be a fool if I tried to ignore or deny it.

So dig deeply, figure out what you need to write and write it!

>>(I worry a little as to not offend, it's not the intent. A habit of observing others actions to observe myself.)<

Don't worry about it. One of my best friends told me that if he ever goes postal, I’ll be first.