Hi Brandon:

The idea of the field is good. It goes well with MBT, if we consider that field being an information field. I think Tom used the word field as well.

Thoughts and creativity come from the evolution of the information system, including the experience and integration of that experience accumulated. Only these are necessary in my opinion.

They seem to be unique because each information system went through unique experiences and conditions.

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

What? You're talking to me in PM, I am merely responding to you arguing with me about nonsense. I did ask her to explain what heat energy is since she called me an idiot for not realizing heat was already brought up by her. She came back saying heat energy is thermal energy. Gives me a lot of reason to believe there isn't much knowledge to come from her. If you don't want to talk to me or have me refer to you in anyway, don't direct anything to me in anyway. It's really that simple Bette. Knock it off.

Bette's most current PM to me:

Can you please go fuck yourself while I throw up at the thought of you being part of the same thing that I am. Do not talk to me anymore, on the board or elsewhere. You are the anti-knowledge. Like Christ, anti-truth. Jesus the man had some truth to him, Christ is ignorance forced by belief systems BS, where you are stuck. Again, DO NOT TALK TO OR ABOUT ME UNLESS YOU JUST CANNOT HELP THE ATTRACTION YOU HAVE FOR MY THOUGHTS. thanks

do it hard too so that it hurts

This was her response to me saying:

What is Thermal energy? You just changed the word heat to thermal. Nice! And no Bette, I've heard this idea from years ago before I even knew you. Having original thoughts is somewhat hard to accomplish, especially for someone who has grown into their habits and have aged.

Consciousness = Digital nonphysical data? What is digital, nonphysical, and what is this data comprised of that has any evidence of existing? Do you even know what digital means or how computers work for example? Do you know what nonphysical even means? Are you daft so much that you cannot define the umbrella terms in which you speak of to be truth? It's ridiculous and it almost makes me want to go vomit. Sorry, but yeah. Can you please tell me what type of energy thermal energy, or heat is?

By the way, she called me daft for not understanding her vaguely detailed definition of consciousness, yet she cannot tell me that heat or thermal energy is part of the electromagnetic spectrum or field. It's beyond her apparently.

_________________
Brandon

Well, guys ...

2 Important currents of Investigation are about to start. I request all omsers or interested in oms to participate in two areas where I am at the present not agreeing with Tom. I've been agreeing with Tom's model so far, but there are two specific areas (that are actually related if you generalize the aspect) where so far I think differently.

I am going to open 2 new threads where I, with the help of all that wish to participate (no degree or credentials necessary) can give an opinion, but please stay on topic.

The general case is this:

Information can come and go to PMR. When information leaves PMR related information comes back as probabilities (the degree an aspects of these probabilities can be discussed too).

Please take into account that I am not opposing Tom, the board or MBT, but just this aspect where I feel there is no evidence to support it. I don't mind if I am right or wrong, because at the end we should all win, no matter who's right or wrong, because we'll move a step further ahead.

Understand that is not easy for me to play this role because I have wonderful feelings and admiration towards Tom, and none of this activity should change that. I hope that the participants will focus on the main topic only and not make it a case of MBT or anti-MBT or anti anything or anti anybody.

If you feel that you want to go against some of the participants in a personal way, please try not to do it. Let's try to keep this objective, not personal.

I'll create two new threads. I received an authorization from Tom to do it. I am going to post previous email exchanges with him so you can see the history.

Let's enjoy this and try to act with respect to ALL PARTICIPANTS and ALL VIEWS.

Thread 1 is this: Detectors on but not recording: http://www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5729

Thread 2 is this: Effects of data in and out of PMR: http://www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5730

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

Without too much metaphysics I would say: Since organisms represented in our dynamic physical reality occupy defined finite volumes of space,information's storage,processing and propagation capacity is limited. Apparent randomness and freewill are necessary at a fundamental level to overcome this and allow for future novelty and adaptation. An 'open system' ultimately is needed to overcome entropy and increase complexity.

Biology,genetics,sex,food,etc are evolved strategies ,operating within our iterated laws and boundary conditions,that increase survival chances.This allows the matter that expresses life (consciousness) to reconfigure and continue propagation using the available and appropriate periodic elements.Diversity and creativity follows since we are subsets of the universe imbued with it's creativity,potential and possibility.

Fractal,hologram and virtual are words-concepts-metaphors that seem to work nicely with these ideas, hence MBT- which gives the best 'why' of it all that I have ever read. (When accounting for most,if not all experience.)

I like that. I have a question though, what do you mean by apparent randomness and free-will, which can be deduced to creativity and thoughts? I am wondering what the mechanic is behind this "randomness". It connects a lot of dots. You referred to it in your post, but I would like it a bit more specified so there's clarity.

_________________
Brandon

Brandon,
If I remember right Vlatko Vedral's book 'Decoding Reality' talks about,or alludes to this.But I may have read it elsewhere;possibly in 'Decoding the Universe' by Charles Seife.

Basically,this is so because of the Holographic principle. As I understood,a 3D object's total information capacity can be calculated by it's 2D surface boundary which in potential can store the total information in encoded or compressed form.

Applied to a living body with genetic information,random changes,breeding,etc would have to occur because,being a finite object,it cannot store all of the information needed for it's distant future states. ( It's been awhile so I may have it quite wrong)

I added freewill because of the recent papers I linked to that shows randomness and freewill to have the same origin. I believe,when throwing consciousness into the mix,we have a matter system capable of supporting-expressing creativity.

Thoughts are defined in MBT as 'discrete packets of organized content'.

O.K.-It has to do with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neuman ... onstructor

In Vlatko Vedral's book 'Decoding Reality' while discussing the increasing complexity of life and information he outlines the problem on page 41:

"If A has to make another machine B,it then seems that B needs somehow to be contained within A intially.But imagine that B wants to then reproduce into C.This means that C must have been contained in B,but since B is contained in A,C must also be contained in A."

After much discussion he sums it up on page 56:

"
*Random mutations aided by natural selection necessarily lead to an increase in complexity of life.

*The process of creating biological information from no prior biological information is another example of the question of creation ex nihilo.Natural selection does not tell us where biological information comes from-it just gives us a frame work of how it propagates."

To add some metaphysics-paranormal:
Personally I think that people like Sheldrake and Goswami are onto something more with this. There could be a sort of platonic realm of 'quantum possibilities' (yes I know,no physical evidence) that become actualized in physical reality.Possibly by calculation/weighted probability ( VR theories),resonance or Chaotic attractors.

Some mystics and occult practictioners believe these are 'thought forms' and they influence or reciprocate with our mental states-choices ,as we have a part of our mind-body that resides there as well. When we dream,Lucid dream or OBE we may experience a personalized slice of this mentally maleable environment and encounter our own 'thought forms'. A scientist would obviously have to get past materialist assumptions to even begin to consider this.