Read MBT on Google books, search for Ph.D. (mind the periods) - page 45 should be it. I was sure I read it in the book, but checked before posting just to be certain.

He talked about being a graduate student walking into a building to teach an undergraduate class, is that what you are referring to?
Love
Bette

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what is?
Consciousness.

Here is a direct link to page 45, seek & ye shall find:
http://books.google.com/books?id=RYHtBP ... &q&f=false

If after that a question is asked whether he dropped out of grad school or not, the answer is on page 60:
http://books.google.com/books?id=RYHtBP ... &q&f=false

Thanks to Google books for making it really easy to search for stuff inside books (queries used were "Ph.D." and "graduate").

You can interpret it how you want. I am interpreting it, and it doesn't say what you think it says. Read it carefully, recently out of grad school (you are assuming graduation with the PhD here), teaching as an undergraduate student. Think what you want, but it seems like ambiguous statements being interpreted in one way by you, but another by me. It also seems after a couple/few years here Tom would have piped in when this issue comes up if he had that degree.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

alik,

You are misreading those pages if you think that they make a clear statement that Tom refers to having a Ph. D. He has very clearly stated before that he completed much (if not all) of the required course work but ran out of money before he could complete the research and went to work based upon his M. S. in physics. I do not have the reference but know this from Toms actual statement. This has been gone through and concluded before. Almost did the same thing myself but did have my research completed, just not the dissertation completely written which I completed away from the university. I assure you that Tom works at that level but we do not need arguments about this here. Few Doctors of Philosophy approach adding so much to the understanding of the science as Tom has done and as I believe will be recognized one day.

Ted

Hi alik,

I can easily see how you can have interpreted those references in the way you did, but agree with Ted, bette's etc comments, and also from remembering previous exchanges here on this topic. But it's intriguing to know that there must be more than a few ex-undergrads out there, somewhere, who were taught by TC in those days. How nice it would be, for us and also Tom, no doubt, to hear from them, eh? If only for reminiscences' sake. Reminiscing is a sort of meditation in itself, I think :)

Arthur

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"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."

often, higher degrees are a result of unemployability, and a PhD is an indication of extreme unemployability ; - )

at least, that's why I went to grad school (could not find a job with the undergrad degree)

in fields that have applications outside of academia, PhD students mid-way face enormous pressure and the prospect of wasting a few more years on a degree that does not normally have an economic payback - and in your mid-twenties, unless you are a complete dork, you will have a hot babe + maybe offspring at home wondering when you are going to start making a living

when I dropped out my PhD program, my advisor said "well, doing the PhD is not actually worth the investment"

that being said, for those with the stamina to finish, the Dr designation is well earned.

so...it is Dr. Vollers from here on!

apart from Ted's likely objections, I think the moderator having the formal title would class this place up a bit : - )

again, the intent of all this is to ensure this misunderstanding does not be allowed to flourish and provide a stick for Tom's opponents to beat him with

suggested talking point when this comes up next time, and it will

"Forum Policy Statement - while we consider Tom's abilities and contribution to greatly exceed PhD level work, it is also important that things be kept factual in order to accurately represent how Tom presents his credentials and to protect Tom's reputation and the credibility of the MBTOE initiative. Tom studied at the PhD level but was not able to complete the work due to financial responsibilities, a common outcome for talented PhD students in fields with practical applications."

something like that.

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Ted,

I agree that those pages do not make a 100% certain statement about that, but they do point to that conclusion with 90% probability - grad school years mentioned were 1968-1972 and it typically takes 3-5 years to do a PhD, with longer times needed in experimental fields compared to theoretical, but running out of funding happens. I missed Tom's statement to the contrary, so I went with the conclusion I made based on the book. I do suspect that many people will make the same conclusion from the book, so bringing it up here would be better done along with explaining the whole thing to be more constructive.

I always thought it was the other way around, i.e. it is harder to land a job with a higher degree as you are deemed overqualified and hence higher risk of you getting bored and leaving the job. So people even have to omit their PhD in resumes, especially immigrants in US and Canada.

alik,

Things have changed after the Second World War in terms of college educations and advanced degrees. Things are again changing now as you probably note in advertisements on television here in the US. There was a shortage of places for undergraduates after the war when so many ex soldiers went to college and grad. school in the US on the so called G. I. Bill. There was a shortage of married housing which was made up by a whole subdivision of small wooden houses especially built and known as Flavets at the U. of Florida, standing for the married Florida Veterans that they were built and reserved for with the big surge of students. There was a shortage of professors which resulted in a lot of retired engineers, without Ph. D's. from industry becoming professors. When I completed an undergraduate degree, I went to Clemson U. under a full fellowship from the Textile Research Institute. I went with a relatively new Ph. D. Mechanical Engineer who took up a tenured professorship there and had two fellowships to bring students with him. When I finally finished my research, which I was only able to do because I had a working wife, by then, and finished my dissertation after leaving, there were literally hundreds of new Ph. D's. being laid off at NASA and such because of a research cutback. I was lucky that I had the opportunity to complete the final requirements, but I never worked at the Ph. D. level. Tom left grad school some time in this same general period and into the same general situation as I understand it but did work at and above his 'nominal' level. Once you are actually working in engineering or physics, the degree you have matters less than circumstances and how well your employers are pleased with your work and how you have specialized. Tom had less luck in terms of completing a terminal degree than I did but more luck in terms of jobs at a level matching his abilities and education. I was lucky in that there was a family business to step into and it worked to some good in that I had higher level skills that let me solve a lot of design problems in the community that the general engineering level available could, or at least did not solve.

If you look at advertisements today you will see that there are all sorts of 'for profit colleges' or schools offering associate degrees and just simple training for entry into low level medical or technical positions of some kind or another. There is a general increase in the requirements for some kind of credentials going on while the qualifications for getting an undergraduate diploma are lowering. What a high school diploma means in terms of educational level achieved is dropping in the meantime. This has been referred to as dumbing down. This is a large part of what drives the home schooling community.

When everything is based upon free will and free markets and good information on future needs is not available, the supply of educated people at various levels does not match the requirements of society. One of the joys of living in PMR.

Ted

Gee, thanks Ted. ;) (wink)
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Ted, thanks for the interesting read. When I said that PhD makes its harder to get a job in the industry I was speaking from the experience of my friends and coworkers. That was a factor to consider when I was looking for a job myself, though I wound up not having this problem, but I guess that was more like an exception.

I think both statements are true. The phenomena that I was referring to is where the really gifted students land jobs out of undergrad, because they can, and the second string goes on to masters level, because they have no choice.

I have never heard of a masters level degree being overspecialization, as can be the case for the PhD, but perhaps if you are fresh off the boat as an immigrant and need to aim for a technical job, or taxi driver, in order to develop english skills, that could be a factor.

Where I work there is a sometimes not too subtle tension between MAs and PhDs, and one senior executive point blank says he won't hire them for non-research positions.

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