my spouse is a great cultural litmus test for this sort of thing - she does not take prisoners and is merciless when it comes to use of religious language, which turns out for me to be excellent preparation for TOE-land, and answers my great personal mystery of why the system would put me (obsessive regarding religion and spirituality) with a spouse to whom such things are more toxic than snake dung.

we are an entirely J and G -free zone, and Tom talks about how use of either of these words will shut down most conversations with western left hemispheric mainstream folks, as well as to a lessor extent the B word. Now, actual implementation of the principles of J is another matter, and I actually believe her ground game is stronger than mine.

Sometimes Mr. Spiritual is big hat, no cattle.

interestingly, she will accept discussion of PSI and NPMR framed within the Spiritualism construct - which tells me that mainstream so-called liberal educated culture will do so as well, and TOEism is even more pallatable to mainstream culture, by design.

for the benefit of graduates of the C 101, and to provide context, much of MBTOE appears to be "merely" J in a labcoat with a bunch of equations to provide comfort. I don't say this with any negative or sarcastic intent....far from it.

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

interesting linkages.

indirectly related...this brings to mind Kurt Vonnegut's quote

"be careful what you pretend to be, because that is what you become."

I get Tom's point that we should aspire to become love, where love is the natural effortless thing to do, but I am still attached to the J-centric idea that half-assed attempts to act with love, even if it is pretending, is not misplaced effort.

I don't go for what I perceive as the Buddhistic idea that we should just meditate and wait for kindness and the other QoC arts to come naturally.

Maybe that's where I am screwed up.

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

I do not know what I would do without you all, but we do. Thank you, message received.
PS: Humor resonates with me well.

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We barely remember who or what came before this precious moment, We are choosing to be here right now. Hold on, stay inside This holy reality, this holy experience. Choosing to be here in This body. - Maynard James Keenan

Our language helps our journey as we drift into the neither land of nowhereness of our ego image creation .
We can mix idelogies and beliefs and come up with a new twist and give it a new name let's call it a Tea Party. The prevailing winds don't move us to reality they are moving us to greater entropy . Are the eco systems more in balance ,are people working together , is the economy on solid ground? Everything is relative except reality and you can't go there because it would offend.You can't go there because you don't even have the language . Oh you might have the language but you can't make the connections . What does balance have to do with love? What is the relationship between existence and being? We are stuck in our little boxes ,where we were educated and socialized to be ,and we use the language of the box. We are deeply divided which is reflected in the damage we have done and continue.

We are divided by nonsensical belief systems, and some of them are going extinct as we speak. Consciousness continues, but all the other stuff changes eventually, and it is doing so now.
Love
Bette

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All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

The closer I' get to Big Truth, the more sense sound makes. This thread has been very helpful, thank you to all involved.

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We barely remember who or what came before this precious moment, We are choosing to be here right now. Hold on, stay inside This holy reality, this holy experience. Choosing to be here in This body. - Maynard James Keenan

I like your smile Jordan, I've been meaning to tell you that. :)
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Thanks bette, that means a lot to me. You and Ted fill the mother and father roles here quite nicely.

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We barely remember who or what came before this precious moment, We are choosing to be here right now. Hold on, stay inside This holy reality, this holy experience. Choosing to be here in This body. - Maynard James Keenan

No wonder I feel so at home here. :)

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http://unlimitedboundaries.ca/

That's sweet, thanks you two.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Nick: "The only thing is that that would mean that the other people would have to speak 75% of the time (having less time for listening themselves), either that, or the preferable option where you both speak equally for 50% of the time, and then enjoy a nice long comfortable silence ;)"

I find that most people probably wouldn't have any trouble filling the 75% with the sound of their own voice because they like the sound of it so much. Have you ever been talking with someone and you can tell they aren't paying a bit of attention to what you are saying because they are just waiting to get their next two cents in?

That is something I have worked on. When a pertinent thought bubbles up I try to put it on hold and listen until the next opportunity naturally arises. It can get a bit frustrating when the moment of relevance passes but oh well. It just wasn't meant to be I guess.

Ramon

I interject; I'm an interjector(er), and I apologize for being that way as I did this last weekend. I also am trying to use a notebook to write thoughts before they slip away because thoughts slip away quickly with me, really, really good ones (maybe). :)

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All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Haha. Sorry Bette. I wasn't referring to you specifically in my statements. I would say I prefer interjection over being ignored for several minutes of you trying to hold on to a "slippery thought" that just has to be expressed. It's all good.

A relevant message that I received in a roundabout yesterday: Since last weekend, I have been a little impatient about experiencing more of the larger reality; asking my guides for more access, extra meditation time, etc. Well, my wife and I were at the groomer's to get one of our more finicky dog's nails trimmed when I noticed a picture of a dog with a bone balanced on his nose, drool running out of his mouth. After starting to turn away, the name Campbell (the artist) caught my eye. Looking closer I then noticed a phrase written on the bottom of the picture: "Patience is a virtue."

Message received loud and clear! I got a little chuckle out of the delivery method though.

Ramon

That is a great delivery Ramon, like the "LUCID2" car plate at the airport, but even more personalized. Um, I guess I'll mention it. Last night I was looking for the aluminum wrap for baked potatoes knowing I put it into the drawer last time I used it. I couldn't find it anywhere after looking hard because I always call Katie to find something, and she or Adrian find it quickly. I really looked well, especially in the drawer because I actually put it where it belonged. No luck, so I call Katie out, and she does the same thing. This time I look in the drawer for the fourth time, and must have thought about the fact that I need to be sure it is not in there, because I AM sure it was not in there all 4 times I checked it, and the drawers around it. We decide it is just not around, and I try to find a oven cooking bag to put all the potatoes in. Adrian walks out of their room, goes to the drawer, and pulls this roll of foil out. wtf. Katie and I know it was a nudge because we know it wasn't there, I'm not sure if Adrian is there as he and I do not talk about MBT too much.
Love
Bette

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All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Tom discussed "I, Me, My" in the Fireside Chat (which I am still transcribing, sorry so slow!) and Edge brought something up at the recent get-together called E-Prime, trying to remove the words Is and Be from everyday language or something like that.

Just a couple of thoughts for you, Jordan Nice Smile :)