But Ted,
Don't you think we have the power to reduce entropy through the application of will? Through the modification of our own awareness and behavior? By increasing our awareness through the application of focus, and self discipline, we can direct (or align) our intent so that it is in alignment with our Intent, essentially lowering our levels of entropy. We CAN learn to recognize negative and destructive thoughts. We CAN learn to control our own thoughts and feelings. By applying our focus to our own thoughts and feelings we can see how our thoughts create our feelings. We can begin to see how we are manipulated through fear (by others, and by our own ego). We CAN educate ourselves. Our consciousness can be expanded, as our awareness is increased. By increasing our awareness/consciousness our feedback can have more positive results. Through learning to control our impulses we can make better choices. "Good" choices also have "good" feedback. Otherwise, whats the value in learning? Tom says that:
"Contrary to popular belief ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance is just ignorance."

The "unity of all things" is a life changing concept. Once I began to learn about this basic "sameness" of everything and that the apparent "seperateness" was an illusion I could no longer conduct myself in a "business as usual" manner. This concept of unity is found everywhere, There are references to unity in Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, and Muslim traditions. AUO became AUM. "The one became the many". Unity of all things is also a part of Toms TOE , but this concept requires no beliefs at all. The fact is that science shows evidence that we share DNA with every other living thing on this planet (even plant DNA), we are composed of ordinary chemicals from the earth itself, and at the atomic level we are made from basic everyday building blocks found throughout the universe.
When I understood the unity of all things, I began to see the world differently. It is much harder for me to act with anger or indifference towards any sentient being, I begin to see myself in everything. I am now required (by my own affection) to treat everyone and everything with extreme gentleness. I can see the futility in anger and fear. and the absurdity of this PMR illusion.
Supposedly, when he achieved enlightenment, the Buddha said:
"I and everything awaken together"


“We are all connected;
To each other, biologically
To the earth, chemically
To the rest of the universe atomically.”

- Neil DeGrasse Tyson (Director of the Hayden Planetarium)

check out this short clip:

http://ayumix01.tumblr.com/post/3166658 ... ologically


Like the old hippie guru told me years ago "Dig yourself"



peace
patrick

_________________
LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

Patrick,

To reduce entropy by the application of will as you say works but only indirectly. You cannot just will this to happen. You can will yourself to feel and think better and with the result that you interact better with others. This better quality of interaction produces the training, the required training for our digital self to reduce the entropy of our digital self. This is Tom's description with which I agree. The primary function of PMR is to provide the environment for the high intensity interaction between beings that

Ted

I see what you mean about the phycical brain and neurological processes having nothing to do with the process of Bodhisattvahood, when you stated:
"I would say that none of our neurological conditions have anything to do with Bodhisattvahood.
And I understand that the question has been discussed before by Tom,
here;
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11&p=21#p21

You are, of course, correct, That our limited mind is also limited in our concepts of free will, Intent, LOVE and fear. I recently listened to the explorer tape on Love and fear and they suggested that comparing our concept of love to AUMs concept of love is like comparing a lighted candle to the sun. I would extrapolate this comparison to include all of our concepts along the same scale. But I cant help believing (yes I said the B-word) that there is a way, scientifically tested, proven successful by the ancients, that anyone can become a "Buddha" or, Bodhisattva. Anyone can achieve "oneness" and become the light of the world.
But the buddhists say that unless you want it as much as a man with his hair on fire wants a pool of water, dont even start. its too hard



peace
patrick

_________________
LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

I wonder though, is this desire to become a Bodhisattva just more ego...what Chogyam Trungpa called "Spiritual Materialism", and that all that should matter is the next DELTA(T) [DELTA(t) of significance], and making the most of enjoying the feedback that results from the intent of that moment, which is in the end just more selfishness...albeit, more effective selfishness [as opposed to run of the mill dumb-ass PMR-centric selfishness]

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

I assure you that I was not implying that I was a Bodhisattva. Bodhisattva is just a word, it doesnt mean much in todays western society anyway. Only that there are methods that are quite simple and effective, to improve our awareness and expand our consciousness. There is always the risk of becomming (or appearing like) a "spiritual snob" or "spiritual materialist", especially when there is big money at stake through the writing of books. But, once again, I suppose the proof will be in the pudding. I do find it interesting though, that the same man (Chogyam Trungpa) wrote a book titled, "Training The Mind and Cultivating Loving Kindness" would write another book against any efforts at mental discipline.

Surely you must agree, that EFFORT is required. If so where do we start?


peace
patrick

_________________
LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

Excellent capture Ryan. This notion of breadcrumb trails and all, where you came from and where you might go.

Ultimately, the question in my mind is "who" laid the breadcrumb trails? Have you thought about that? I am not convinced there is only one possible answer, but I am not sure how far you have read.

When you're done pondering that, ask yourself if the breadcrumb trail was spiritually optimized, or if it was optimized for your personality?

I recently finished MBT, and these are questions I'm sitting in relation to my case. But they are highly personal. I suspect they are in your case as well? In my case, it is clear that the breadcrumb trail was optimized relative to my personality, interests and so forth. I'll bet they were for you as well.

_________________
You see, the universe IS well designed. It is designed to have loop holes that have a low risk to reward relationship. With risk comes potential reward. And Mother Nature has known this for a long time. Why would anyone second guess her? It's by design.

Don't we leave our own crumb trail?
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Hmmm. Interesting response. Probably deserves it's own thread.

But by "we", who do you mean? If "we" is your individuated consciousness, do you mean to suggest that the breadcrumb trail message is from your subconscious, or are you implying more of a message transfer paradigm (for example ... send a message to yourself by operating in future probability space?). I have always felt that option (2) is interesting though I have yet to demonstrate this to myself (and I've tried).

_________________
You see, the universe IS well designed. It is designed to have loop holes that have a low risk to reward relationship. With risk comes potential reward. And Mother Nature has known this for a long time. Why would anyone second guess her? It's by design.

We create our own Reality, and we do so with each choice we make each day as far as our future Reality goes too, other than the "randomness" of all the daily choices all the other IUOC involved with the "messages" the trail has on it has on the probable future. It is the "we" that I also mean in "we create our own Reality", so the royal we I'd say. I like your example as well. Any hint or crumb is from the LRC, the Big We, as I see it.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

sorry, that was sloppy posting on my part...I was just thinking aloud, going off on a tangent, and didn't imply any sort of criticism

from my time with Chogyam's Shambala dudes I recall a thread of humility that ran through the practise and teachings...thoughts like

"so you have spent a few hundred hours sitting on a cushion refining how to do nothing...big whoop!"

or

"you would not be here subjecting yourself to this stuff unless you were screwed up"

which was startling to hear at the time, especially after coming out of the spiritual snobbery that was attached to the Christians I had been hanging with

I guess I keep trying to bring it down to where the rubber meets the road, which is the next significant fork in the road...like today I am selling a car....lots of little but significant decisions to make in that process

maybe I worry that words like "light of the world" and bodhisattva, overglamorize the process, however accurate these points may be

Chogyam was an interesting case study. Old school Tibetan Lama who escaped from the communists over the mountains and eventually started teaching in the US the 70s (if I am remembering the story accurately)...cigarette in one hand, martini in the other, girlfriend in the back of the room, sports car parked outside. They were centered in Boulder before moving HQ to Halifax. Spiritual materialism is anything but being against doing spiritual work...I guess what he was getting at though is that spiritual activity and ambition gets corrupted by ego, like anything else.

"Enlightenment is ego's ultimate disappointment."
— Chögyam Trungpa

My current interpretation is that all that matters is your next intent, and that the mental state to strive for is "I am anything but a big deal" in the scheme of things, which points to the irony of the Bodhisattva vow, renouncing your own enlightenment, until everyone else is done first

...."after you Alphonse".

I am just chattering here...not trying to poke you or anything

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Randy,
Not to worry, sometimes I need a little poke, lol.
Martinis? Girlfriend? SPORTSCARS?!? WOW, I didnt know that. Where do I join? LOL. Anyway, I agree with you, a few hundred hours sitting on a cushion may help to create tranquility in ones own mind, but will it reduce entropy? Tom said that we are not going to make any significant entropy reduction by reading books or talking about it or even by flying around in NPMR. Its in everyday interactions with others, here in this PMR, virtual learning lab.


peace
patrick

_________________
LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

Some things to consider in regard to the question of what do we do to reduce entropy and how do we get started... Direct experience is the key element in entropy reduction and growth. This is (according to Tom's model) the very reason why AUM evolved from AUO, why "realities" exist, why we as "individual" chucks of the whole exist. It is all about growth through experience. We are not here in PMR to become perfect, but instead to learn through direct experience while we struggle with imperfection. Becoming better is an eventual side effect of this process. So really, there is nothing to do or to start doing, we have already started and are already doing it.

Our effort in this process is of course relevant. However, learning and experience is still going on here even when we aren't trying. Trying won't directly make us be different. "Being" different occurs as a result of knowing and understanding something after the necessary direct-experiences. We can however increase our awareness (understand the game), and put our efforts into making good choices within the rule set and within our current limitations.

In the end though it is all about experience.

Our limitations are not negative. They are the stage of our experience. There is effort required to maintain awareness and to keep on keepin' on in this process of evolution. We have to be patient though and realize that it is an ongoing process. I don't know where it stops, but I do know that I am eons from even being close to worrying about that.

Anyway, just some comments in passing from my limited understanding.

_________________
-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"

for myself the Chogyam group was shock treatment that broke me out of my counter-culture box/trap and I was able to set aside the deluded vision of seeking a spiritual profession (priest, monk, social worker etc), and return to reality, which meant grad school and economics and a regular career.

funny thing is...turns out there is more "spirituality" in a cubical farm than a monestary

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Say what?

Ted

Lol, Ted,

Im sure there are many, great oportunities for entropy reduction in a cubicle.


peace
patrick

_________________
LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick