"As you can tell, I'm new to the board, and would like to introduce myself quickly by saying like you all i am an explorer of altered states of consciousness and enjoy watching Toms videos. i had a membership here ages ago, but i forgot it, and rather than re-using it i decided to start fresh here."

Question in reference to: Tom Campbell Q&A (4 of 8) Beach, The Value of Collecting Non-Local Evidence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3F9bWaKPWA

Collecting Non-Local Evidence seems to be an elusive experience for me, so far during my studies i have yet to successfully find some sort of evidence that my consciousness really is perceiving information outside of the awareness of my regular 5 physical senses.

I have tried a number of things. i have tried using "Robert Bruce's" method and placing cards in hard to see places, upon entering the "Out Of Body" experience, however i was not able to collect real evidence as the cards were always upside down, or not there at all.

I have tried many other things, for instance seeing the "Make-up" of my household which included the position of the people within the house and what they were doing... however upon review, i found that the conversations that took place during my OBE didn't really happen.

I am not the best OBE'er, and so whenever i do get the opportunity and take advantage of it i always end up with not so desirable results. i contacted Tom a few months back and told him this issue, he encouraged me to try it for six months and then review the data, however it has already been a good few months and i have not once been successful in collecting Non-Local Evidence.

I know i have a long ways to go before i can come to a conclusion of sorts, however i came here in the hopes maybe someone here has the skill to collect this type of evidence and may be willing to share some knowledge on certain techniques or states of mind that helped them achieve it.

I don't like to simply "Believe" in people, But for no known reason i believe Tom and would really.. REALLY like the experience he had that left him saying "my god its real" for weeks later..... I have no idea where to go from here so i turn to the boards for help.

Thanks in advance, and i look forward to learning and teaching on the forums.

Hi TheArtisan, and welcome to Tom's MBT discussion board.
Love to you and yours,
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Hi Art,

Try hooking up with someone that you know. People vibes are much clearer than thing or place vibes.


Totally off topic: Conk ass tornadic outbreaks in the SE US being covered live here:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/ABC-33-40 ... ium=520983


-Montana

This is going to sound like a lame answer Art, but what has worked for me is to stop trying so hard to find evidence and proof and instead set my intent on growth... from there I just try to remain open to what comes. Ironically what has come from this approach is evidence.. which I no longer really need. The difference is between seeking data as evidence as apposed to collecting data while trying to grow. The key for me has been letting go of the idea of finding solid evidence and proof and just being satisfied with what I currently hold as probable... and moving forward with that (accepting of uncertainty). I still do tests, but my intent is no longer to obtain some sort of evidence, proof, or solidity... my intent is simply to experience things that will help me grow. If it doesn't pan out, then I assume that I won't be useful for me at this time and I move on to something else. Apparently this was what I was missing. It of course may not be true for all, but this has been my experience.

I have no idea what your intent is of course, and I don't mean to imply that your intent is just to find evidence. I'm just throwing my experience out there in case it is useful.

_________________
-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"

Yes, Justin, I think that is a very subtle, and equally powerful. adjustment. I have made that adjustment, inconsistently, and noticed a difference, for example in synchronicities.

Interesting answers guys and thanks for all the replies, i will try adopting some of the things said here. i find this topic extremely interesting, because it appears perceiving our "real" reality during an OBE is not straight forward at all.

In fact there are a good number of "expert" OBE'ers and Lucid dreamers that say they cannot collect non local evidence, or that it simply is not possible, examples of such people include Stephen Laberge, and William Buhlman, Does this mean that the experiences of Buhlman are all made up? that his technique is wrong? Surely if such men and women have been going out of body regularly for decades then they must have eventually come across some sort of self proving evidence right? if not it shows that people can spend a lifetime OBE'ing and not really go anywhere at all.... (of course i do not discount the possibility that it is much harder to perceive our reality than it is others).

I think this topic needs to be addressed a little bit more and explained better by the folks that know how to do it, maybe i have overlooked such information? does anybody know of any writer or teacher that goes into collecting non local evidence in great detail? any books on this information would be great.

Reading some books, including one of toms, i noticed that he mentioned during his Remote viewing sessions, he had high alpha levels, Matching this with the Charles Tart studies of "Miss Z" as she also had really high alpha levels during her OBEs and she managed to correctly identify a five figure number, This probably sounds dumb, as i am not all too familiar with brainwaves etc, but could this have something to do with it? maybe others who are not able to collect non local data are not reaching those high alpha levels? heck i don't know, but if anybody does i would be happy to hear it.

Well, thanks for your time! look forward to reading more from you.

P.S i have tried remote viewing recently, and i hit all 3 targets pretty much accurately, 2 of them were spot on, i will continue to "RV" though (most likely during the summer now) and see if it wasn't just beginners luck, or some sort of trickery in the video i was using to learn it.

Hi Art,

Have a look at Robert Bruce's book "Astral Dynamics". There he talks about near-earth regions of the "astral plane" that he calls the Real Time Zone (you will see that term referred to on a number of boards as the RTZ). In that region, objects are still pretty closely related to those that you find on the physical plane, but it is not at all physical... so that you will easily find a different coffee table from the one that is normally in your living room, or windows and furniture may be transposed.

It happens that Tom's thesis that "it is all just data" explains things very well here... you are still close enough to matters to see that windows and furniture are still there, but their exact placement doesn't matter. ... so that data that matter show up as such, but stuff that doesn't matter can get rendered in a randomized fashion.

Quickest solution, when OBE ask for a guide to take you to a region that it would be best to go for your learning process at that time. If you are lucid enough you can more or less insist that certain things get explained to you and they well might, but it is a sort of detour.

-Montana

Nice post Montana, much appreciated.

Thanks for the Robert Bruce reference and lead, ill do a net Search on Real Time Zone OBE, Also as i am somewhat new to OBE's i never really thought to ask another being for help... or to even ask for help in general during one, thanks for the idea, ill give it a go next time im lucid enough.

You know, the last time i saw a being i was in my room during an OBE, it was tall and chalk-white, a skinny thing but it sure as hell spooked me ha ha.

Art,

I neglected to post a link to Rob Bruce's site: http://www.Astraldynamics.com.

There are piles of information there, lots of Tutorials, and a forum as well.

A caution when seeking help from floating spirits: You ONLY want ones qualified to guide. Review the Monroe Affirmation:

Gateway Affirmation

I am more than my physical body. Because I am more than physical matter, I can perceive that which is greater than the physical world. Therefore, I deeply desire to Expand, to Experience; to Know, to Understand; to Control, to Use such greater energies and energy systems as may be beneficial and constructive to me and to those who follow me. Also, I deeply desire the help and cooperation, the assistance, the understanding of those individuals whose wisdom, development and experience are equal or greater than my own. I ask their guidance and protection from any influence or any source that might provide me with less than my stated desires

(http://www.monroeinstitute.org/the-powe ... irmations/)

I used to think that 'affirmations' were hoaky as hell new-age fru-fru gumbo. But they're not. They condition one's pre-conscious stance in a particular direction, (as does, to some degree, everything we say, but especially so when we especially intend that it be so.)

After a person affirms a position or direction often enough, or a certain amount of times, it becomes the default condition.

Parenthetically: You want the best guiding you can get for the same reason that you want the best financial, medical, or legal advice that you can get, and are better off getting it rather than asking anyone that happens to be within reach at that moment what they might think.

-Montana

This lines right up for me with Surrender, "Let Go, Let God", going with the flow and Loving What Is (by Byron Katie). I think Tom would say we tend to get what we need, not what we want. Maybe try not to have any expectations whatsoever, and just observe, experience and assimilate what's happening.

I'm just putting my two dollars in :) (inflation)

I think that one of the challenges here is that we tend to use the term OOB to mean many many different phenomenon.

When Tom discusses OOBE I take it to mean a deep meditative state in which he is able to decouple mentally from his physical senses and tune into a different data stream. I can relate to what he is saying here, but I do not believe this is the easiest way to proceed. When you discuss leaving out cards, going OOB and finding them still face down, it sounds to me like your experiences are more in line with Tom's method.

I don't want to trivialize the matter, but why not go the "easier" route and master lucid dreaming or more precisely "Wake initiated lucid dreams". There are very good resources out there to help you master that process. The technology has improved and there are various devices and safe/legal supplements that can support the process.

Anyway, it is just my 2 cents. When I have done card reading type experiments in lucid dreams, I simply walk over to the target I left out in waking reality, flip the "dream card physically" and see what is there. I memorize it, wake and compare. You simply have a lot more degrees of freedom once you become comfortable with this level of OOB travel.

_________________
You see, the universe IS well designed. It is designed to have loop holes that have a low risk to reward relationship. With risk comes potential reward. And Mother Nature has known this for a long time. Why would anyone second guess her? It's by design.

I think you're missing an "A" in your link Montana, I got "Sorry, we can't find "www.astraldynmics.com". Did you mean http://www.astraldynamics.com?



Dr T, please correct me if I am mistaken, but what it sounds like you are saying here is "I know what Tom is talking about and he is wrong". Just because you take Tom's words to mean something to YOU, does not necessarily mean that's what they MEAN. Does it?

Thanks Lynda,

I see you have a link there as well, but corrected my mistake as well.

-Montana

Right, I copied and pasted the whole error message because it was quicker than typing it all up and it said basically what I wanted to ask. I am late for work.

Love,
Lynda

Montana – Thanks for the link, I gave his book a read and found it very interesting, he does talk a fair bit about the real time zone which was much appreciated, However there is something about the man himself im not too fond of, in an interview between Robert Bruce and Tom, I loved how Tom seemed so humble and didn't really care about doing this for the money, nothing wrong with doing it for the money, but a person such as Tom who may be even losing money by doing this just adds more credibility to this whole thing. After reading Robert Bruce's work i searched the web for RTZ information. I came across an interesting article written by Frank Kepple.

http://www.astralpulse.com/frankkepple.html

He too mentions the RTZ and in fact explains the basic makeup of our reality and splits them into 4 levels, he builds upon Monroes work, its an amazing read, he makes it all seem really exciting and makes me almost want to forget this whole evidence thing and just explore fully for a while.

Aero – Thanks for the reply, yeah, I guess this is all I can do really, just continue to explore and let the evidence come by itself.

DrTechnical – I don’t really know the difference between OBE technique, and WILD techniques, to me they seem to be the same thing, just you are focusing on different things. The technique I use to OBE can be found in another thread, its OBE4U Indirect techniques.

As soon as I wake up, I close my eyes again and imagine myself floating out of body. If im tired enough I will slip into an OBE. Although im not a big fan of this method because im at the mercy of trying to time it right etc etc. I am however trying to work on the more meditation side of things so I can “switch” between different data streams like Tom does.

Also i dont want to give the impression im doing this only for "proof" reasons, and im into this whole thing just because im out to see if its real or not. This isnt the case at all. infact even if its not "real" i will still continue to explore these altered states.

My reasons for doing it at this time, are not for enlightenment etc.. although hopefully along the path it may make me a better person however im mainly interested in this because i like the creative aspect, my job in this world has me creating CG environments, and thats what i love to do, it just BLOWS my minds that its possible to create environments in these other worlds and explore them in far greater detail than i ever can using a computer.... that and im also not limited by System Specifications lol.

Edit: Oh i forgot to add, also it would be amazing meeting other beings and just having a conversation to see what its like where they live (this is my reasons for finding proof)....