Hi Everyone,

So I finally finished the entire trilogy and feel like I've complete a marathon for my mind, a lot of effort and energy put it and very rewarding in the end. One thing that struck me towards the end of the book is that Tom mentions the fact that solitude is not required for lowering the entropy of consciousness and that this can be accomplished through every day living and the trials and tribulations of life. I'm just curious how other readers viewed this stance. On one hand I can see how we bring significance to the events in our life by the manner in which we react to various scenarios and whether that is one that brings us greater in peace in our life or one that brings us more drama and chaos. However, I've always felt that meditation and finding the void has been the most expansive for me in terms of a sense of peace and overall well being.

In fact one thing I've always been fascinated by is the out of body experience, I've had several throughout my life but I really want to hone this skill and develop it so that I can truly travel and explore NPMR in a more detailed manner and also integrate that in to every day life. I'm curious if anyone who has read the book has found OBE's to be a means of lowering one's entropy of consciousness and if so have they been able to integrate it into every day life or have they found that solitude is best for OBE practices. I know Tom says not to focus too much on a specific experience but how does one balance that with intent and the desire to lower ones consciousness? That is, if I am really interested in OBE's and I set my intent on that, it seems to me that an added side effect would be the lowering of entropy for my consciousness.

Hi rocketman, and welcome to Tom's MBT discussion forums. As I understand it from reading here going out of body at will does NOT advance the Evolution of Consciousness of the bit able to do so, but it is gravy. :)
Love to you and yours,
Bette

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All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

I just answered what is effectively the same question for Joseph. Look at this link, please: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6087&p=41324#p41324

Tom has discussed this but it always seems to be missed in the rush for OOBE.

Ted

rocketman,

Welcome to the forum, glad to hear you've completed your read of MBTOE. I'm only on a second reading, which is highly recommended at the least!

I can only speak from personal experience, but it seems that most of my entropy reduction occurs when I am interacting with others. I've always been somewhat of a loner, living inside my head so to speak. I primarily enjoy working on technical problems alone. This has lead me to much anxiety and stress when I have to go out in the world and deal with situations and other people. Precisely what I need to correct, and I've improved much over the years. I intuitively feel that this matter depends much on your overall growth as a IUOC. Some need the solitude for intense focus, others need the interactions of others, or both of these. I don't think there is a one size fits all approach. I live alone, work a menial job and go out a few times a week to socialize.

I would say that my OBE's and similar such experiences have contributed to lowering entropy. The main reason being the amount of fear I have encountered and neutralized in these experiences. There is still much fear and many many unknowns about this stuff. It seems very helpful in my understanding. These matters also have contributed to helping me find a bigger perspective on what my purposes are here. I'm building my own big TOE slowly with every experience. With that said, it may not always be useful. I really think it depends on the individual and what they need to experience in order to grow, same as above.

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-Binary Digital Data Transmission-
01000010011001010010000001001100011011110111011001100101

Hello Rocketman...

Pretty thick book, eh? I am at the end of book two currently and don't know if I've absorbed much to this point. At least it feels that way...I know I have but this book is such a beast! But congrats on making your way through the triology.

I read a paragraph or two sometimes and go, "Eh..?" Then re-read it and have a bit more insight. Two steps forward, one step back. Tom's writing is very scientific and theoretical for me sometimes (lit major), but I find value in it if I can just aim to get the overall idea and not rush the reading. I digress....

OBE and learning. I'm not a frequent flier in NPMR at all. In fact, my conscious experiences there are few. So I can't say that my own pudding has a particular taste yet. But looking at what I was reading last night (book 2, section 4, chapter 61), and echoing much of what Ted and others have said, this PMR was constructed due to the fact that not much evolution was taking place in NPMR. I'm guilty of desire to learn magic tricks, go out of body, talk to ghosts and all that paranormal stuff. But in what I understand so far....if I just work hard here, that is all I really need to focus on.

Even so, doesn't Tom say that if we don't explore NPMR that it is akin to us just staying in our house and not going outside to see what is beyond our door, or city, or state, or country? I guess small, realistic steps (without that desire) seem to be the path to follow. But hey...that is just my best guess right now. I'm still not done reading it!

Cheers,
Mark

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Write down your dreams. They are your myths.

Consider this Rocketman: Set your desire and motivation on growth (entropy reduction, growth toward love, evolution, etc) and then do your best to make choices that are just a little bit better than your current level of being. This is the primary means to grow. Everything else follows. If this is your approach and you feel a tug or nudge to explore via OBE then there are likely some lessons there for you. If this is your approach and you feel a tug or nudge to be a doctor, then there are likely some lessons for you there. Do you see what I mean? Ego and fear will of course be the stumbling blocks along the way. These are also the lessons that we need. There is not an easy way to tell if our motivations and drive are actually from fear/ego or from an honest desire to grow. The best we can do is to look at our intent with as much honestly and humility as possible and move forward from there with the best choice that we can manage. This is to fully engage the process of evolution.

If your intent is growth and you feel a tug to explore NPMR, then I would say that the tug is like a road sign on your path suggesting to "go this way". Each person has their own path and road signs of course.

I you find that it might be more about coddling fear or satisfying ego (often very hard so tell), then look more honestly at what other tugs are present.

These are the choices and decisions that we must struggle with... this is the grand adventure. The good news is that the more we engage the process, the more amazing the adventure becomes. The goal is to be in the adventure.

I hope that makes sense and was useful in someway. It is of course based on my subjective experiences and limited understanding.

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-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"

Wow!!! Thanks so much for all the great feedback here is what I've gathered from the responses I've received and after going back through some of the chapters again:

1. Pudding Tasting: It seems to me like the OBE phenomenon is a great way to taste the pudding for yourself and experience the different aspects of reality. Not necessary for entropy reduction per se, but a great way to verify through personal experience what lies beyond PMR. Also a great avenue for building your own big TOE with validation and personal experiences.
2. Desire and Motivation: Justin your response was very insightful in this manner, it really makes me think that if I am drawn towards the OBE experience then there could a lot of growth for me in integrating NPMR experiences with PMR reality. Important though to always do an ego check to ensure that the true desire is really growth and entropy reduction.
3. Fear and Ego: Sliver your reply really made me think about this a lot, in fact that is one of the current blocks I seem to have in controlling my own out of body experiences. Perhaps the pursuit of OBE can indeed be entropy reducing when there are challenges that present themselves and allow us to grow. I think controlling fear and ego aspects outside of NPMR are just as entropy reducing if not more so but it doesn't mean that an OBE can't also propel us forward and allow us to indeed reduce entropy of our consciousness.
4. Going outside the House: Mark, you also brought up a great point from the book as well and that being that the OBE or any other NPMR experience allows us to expand are perception of reality and if nothing else at least helps us in validating our own personal big TOE.
5. Enjoy PMR for what it is: Ted your reply helps me to see that PMR is the learning lab we've all signed up for and has a great potential to help us in our path for growth. I completely agree with that as well, PMR interactions do allow us for some of the quicker evolutions of our consciousness because they allow us to react and force decisions and provide us feedback through emotions and other outcomes.
6. Welcome to the big TOE discussion: Bette and everyone else, thanks again for the welcome to the forums, I look forward to many more insightful discussions with everyone. This looks like a great place for interaction and growth.

Hi Rocketman

I would say that OBE may or may not reduce entropy. It just depends. If you go out there for the sole purpose of 'dealing' with negative beings or participating in checkmating malevolent warlords (like it happens in this PMR), such experience will definitely not lead to entropy reduction in the short term but may in the long term. You can integrate your experiences in various PMR and NPMR with your current reality here. your intent is important, what you want to achieve - again, it may or may not reduce entropy.

Others have already said it, but here it is.

It's only about what you bring to the experience, what is your intent for experiencing OBE (NPMR) and what will your intent be when you actually have accomplished this? If your intent is towards the lowering of entropy, indirecty or directly, then NPMR will be a good way to accelerate your growth. If your intent is to satisfy the need of your ego (as all the different forms it might take) then it would most likely be useless, or in the worst case retarding for growth..

Based on your latest response, you definitely have the right attitude and should go on to become a true "rocketman" :-)

To efcc83: I am curious to why you gave the example of "If you go out there for the sole purpose of 'dealing' with negative beings or participating in checkmating malevolent warlords (like it happens in this PMR)" because I do not see many people doing that, especially not with the sole purpose. I have had some good lessons regarding this, one of them being "If you go out there for the sole purpose of 'dealing' with negative beings [...]" an expression of primarily ego. (To other potential readers, I strongly discourage doing this; actively 'going out there for the sole purpose of 'dealing' with negative beings').

Besides which this is not a role playing game on your computer for your entertainment. It does not have a reset button or a reanimate button. There are some truly bad ass dudes out there that can eat your lunch if you try to play around with and challenge them. The best policy is to never draw their attention and you will not have any problems. You have not yet understood things if you are of the opinion that it is for the good guys to 'do' the bad guys.

Ted

Hi Rocketman,

just made me think of this. :)

“What I must do is all that concerns me, not what the people think.
This rule, equally arduous in actual and intellectual life, may serve for the whole distinction between greatness and meanness.
It is the harder because you will always find those who think they know what is your duty better than you know it?
It is easy in the world to live after the world’s opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after your own; but the great man is he who in the midst of the crowd keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude.” -Ralph Waldo Emerson


Love,
Wayno

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specialis_sapientia

Lets clarify negative beings - entities with sole purpose of malevolence, focused ill-intent. They challenge you even if you have ignored them. You decide to follow another path, they follow you there - they will not stop no matter how you try to avoid them. They prey on one's fear. Therefore you have to deal with them. There is nothing ego about going out there for the sole purpose of dealing with them. You have to stop them, you did not look for their trouble in the first place. Also, someone trapped and drowning in the schemes of negative beings might shout out for your help, you have to go and liberate - that's love and compassion, there is nothing ego about freeing someone from malevolent entities who prey on their victims' fear. These situations simply demand the sole purpose of going out there to deal with the negative beings and stop them, you don't expect the entropy in such battle scenario to decrease.

Of course there are also negative entities that will mind their business, they neither challenge you nor try to eat your stuff, in that case you have no need whatsoever to go out there for the sole purpose of dealing with them. You just mind your business too and enjoy your OBE.

You did no say anything about "challenge you" or be stalked, you said "If you go out there for the sole purpose of 'dealing' with negative beings or participating in checkmating malevolent warlords (like it happens in this PMR)", this strongly implies being offensive and vigilante, not defensive and helping yourself or others. Good it was clarified then.

Great quote,
R.W.E has another saying that I find to be TRUE, and try to remember:

"People fail to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character" ~Emerson~

So I always try to choose my words very carefully.

There is a book called "The Four Agreements" that describes the importance of being "Impeccable with your words" it has made me aware of how important it is to be precise in every attempt at communication. So much of what we say and do is misinterpreted. Also it has made me aware of how we can easily (unknowingly) use our own thoughts and words against our own best interest.

We are judged (our QOC is measured) by every word we say, every thing we do, By our body language, and even every facial expression.

Awareness is the first step.

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LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

This isn't a fact, it's just some words someone put together. If you think it has worth, fine, but it is not a truth. Just saying.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.