This should answer it:

"Lucid dreams and OOBE approach leaving PMR from different awareness's and perspectives. Because of that difference people who have little operational control tend, by default, to remain tied to the spaces through which they enter the out-of-PMR experience --- i.e., lucid dreams (entered from a dream state) are more dreamlike and OOBE (entered fully conscious) is more awake like. However it is only habit and belief that ties someone to the spaces through which they enter the out-of-PMR experience. Once free of PMR, your focus and intent (and, of course, your ego, fears, expectations, needs, and beliefs -- if you happen to have any of those things :-)) are solely in charge of what happens next." viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2961&p=6164&#p6164

A longer post viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2907&p=5514#p5514

"Relv: What do you think is the difference between dreams and other NPMR activities? (OBE's and the likings..)

Tom: Dreams are just another reality frame at our disposal for experiential learning.

Relv: Why do you think dreams, especially lucid dreams, have such a different nature from OBE's ?

Tom: They are fundamentally very similar. The main differences are generated by nature of the entry (from uninterrupted awareness or from unconsciousness) and the nature of belief attached to each entry process." viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3114&p=7075&#p7075

These are just a few posts on the subject, there are more, but it should answer your question.

pgtrue, that put things in a different light. If we already are OUT.

bette, thanks for the welcome.

specialis_sapientia, thanks for the details. I stuck to one line: "They are fundamentally very similar."
To me that seems that LDs and OBEs in fact are regarded as different, even if the difference is small?

I've tried to collect info on this LD - OBE issue, and here are some of my finding:

------------

Here is a video with Buhlman. Listen to the 3 minutes around 38:15 - 41:15.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v0SNa68gKw

Buhlman says that LD and OBE are connected to each other, but they are
not the same. Though, an LD can be upgraded to an OBE.

OBE, you are hovering a few inches from your physical body.

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And here Robert Waggoner, author of Lucid Dreaming on the subject of LD is not OBE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuyDBH_6 ... re=related

Somewhere around 1:25, Waggoner even makes a reference to Monroe on this issue.

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Robert Peterson also thinks that LDs are different from OBEs, see the table:

http://www.robertpeterson.org/obe-vs-lucid.html

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I've also found document on the internet from other, like LaBerge and Scott Rogo, who indicates
that OBEs are different phenomena than LDs. I'll spare you from the details unless someone asks
me explicitly about the URL links.

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Monroe made one interesting indication in a radio interview. Monroe is asked if LDs can be used
as springboards to do OBEs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_FhfHoq ... re=related

Interestingly enough Monroe said that LDs are equivalent to F 15.
Listen to the interview around 1:00 - 1:35.

------------

So it is interesting for me to know how much different LDs are from OBEs (if they are different?)
and Campbell's view on this matter, too. I've tried for more than a year to OBE and have had very little
success, except for very brief OBEs, which quickly have turned into semi-lucid dreams. So the
question for me is if I should try to continue OBE attempts or go for more LDs?

Also, when I LD, I soon wake up, or I lose lucidity, so LDs don't seem to be a good way either.

I mostly wonder how big the difference are between LD and OBE (if different at all)?

Pauli - Have you read MBT? Buhlman, Robert Bruce and all the rest do not understand NPMR (Non Physical Matter Reality) very well - or at all. Your physical body is virtual. If your consciousness is participating in the dream VR (Virtual Reality) and becomes aware (has a lucid dream) - you are still in the dream VR. Your control and participation are limited in that VR unless you have enough control to change your focus to an OBE. It is more changing locals and data streams - PMR is just another data stream. It is the data stream where your consciousness is primarily focused while you are in this experience packet.

Pretty much all the other people that talk and write about OBEs are just going into NPMR and bring back their experiences through their own filter. NPMR is not like PMR. They pattern match their experience from NPMR terms into PMR ideas and words. That is why their experiences are interesting but not fundamental truths. Tom did not do that. He went into NPMR as a scientist and did repeatable experiments - such as going back to the same places to see if the same things happened. That is how he discovered data streams and all the rest. And that is why he doesn't share his personal experiences. To think someone's personal experiences are going to be the same as your own is to filter your experience through theirs. You get much more distortion that way than if you went out and explored without some other person's bias.

LDs and OBEs are fun and can help you overcome fear and give you information. If you enjoy it keep trying to do either and have fun with what ever you get. Neither are particularly important to lowering your entropy.

Sainsbury, no I've only just started reading the first 30 pages of TOE.
Just for the record, I've found this article where LaBerge stated:

"Ten of the 107 lucid dreams qualified as OBEs..."

I also found a Campbell post, link -> here, where he states that lucid dreaming can be
used as a launch pad for OBE, which also indicates that they are not identical.

I wasn't trying to say they were the same. I am saying that they are different in focus and control but you are probably still in a VR data stream. That is the similarity. You generally have a lot more control in an OBE than a lucid dream. The problem with pretty much everybody that writes about it is that they don't understand it is a VR data stream. And they don't understand the difference between the data streams.

Linda,

You are exactly correct and that is as you say something that is not kept in mind but should be. Everything that you perceive, be it dreaming, awake, lucid dream, OOBE, NDE, or whatever other classification you care to name or make up is data received over the RWW network. It is data passed to 'you' as you exist as an IUOC participating in PMR and being filtered by the rule set of PMR. Not only is it subjective rather than objective but your PMR experience and expectations make it appear to be some version of PMR. You are pattern matching to what you have in memory and merging memories and making best fit selections to come up with what you think you saw, heard, smelled, etc. As Bette likes to say, it's all just data. And these categories are just arbitrary names. A dream can morph into a lucid dream and from there into an OOBE. These names imply certain characteristics and as the characteristics of what you experience changes, the appropriate name changes. The only really 'tight' characterization that makes sense is the NDE. It would only make sense to call something an NDE if you did in fact come close to dying during it. But what happens in an NDE is still entirely subjective. Who meets you, if anyone does, is open to interpretation depending upon your beliefs and experience. It varies to provide the optimum experience for you as you are in terms of experience and development level.

Ted

Definitely some great quotes from Tom there. :)

This is how I interpret those quotes:
For the people who choose to define/label their experiences (Lucid Dream or OOBE, for example) they do so out of the habit of needing to define everything. Whereby the only difference between the experiences comes down to how you entered NPMR and became aware during the experience. For example, in a lucid dream, as tom says, you become aware AFTER entering the dream state, which can leave your subconscious mind slightly in control... whereby in an oobe, you enter the state fully aware with your conscious mind fully in control.

Whatever "reality frame" you happen to be in doesn't dictate what you label the experience. Whatever "reality frame" you're in is just that, a different reality frame. What dictates the labeling of the experience (if you so choose to do so) is how much awareness you have during the experience.

I have a theory that the subjective differences that people relate between NPMR experiences relates to whether your conscious mind or subconscious mind is in direct control of the experience. A Dream being an NPMR experience where the subconscious mind is in full control and an OOBE (or astral projection) is an NPMR experience where the conscious mind is in full control... which leaves a Lucid Dream being some combination of conscious/subconscious mind in control.

_________________
http://unlimitedboundaries.ca/

As of late my belief on LDs and OBEs has shifted to the idea that they are not distinct phenomena. This has blurred the line between the two in my night experiences. IMO, if someone really does believe they are separate experiences they are limiting them self and they will experience them as separate and distinct experiences. How I see it consciousness is fluid and can easily moves from one NPMR local to another. Some spontaneous night dream occur on purely subjective locals where others may occur in the higher focus, which I consider more objective realities - where more than your individual consciousness is influencing the local.

Hi cOsmOnautt, and welcome to Tom's MBT discussion forums. I'd think it would be whatever one intended it to be too.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Some really great posts.

In that the process and purpose is always the same (growth, experience, etc), the place is not all that relevant. The key difference which seems to extend beyond the where ( be it PMR, OBE, LD, etc) is one's state of awareness (clarity, presence, etc). In my experience, changing my level of awareness/focus always changes the reality and/or environment. Of course the reality/environment doesn't actually change; just my perception and interpretation of the data... or perhaps is also creates a shift to access new, more, or greater data.

The idea being that attempting to be present or more aware/focused always seems to create good results and tends to lead to those profound experiences. This is true of PMR, OBE, LD, etc.

Labels are always good for communication... but not for beliefs :)

Something like that...

_________________
-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"

True,
A small increase in awareness can make a huge difference in our individual consciousness

_________________
LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

"Tom: They are fundamentally very similar. The main differences are generated by nature of the entry (from uninterrupted awareness or from unconsciousness) and the nature of belief attached to each entry process."

Couldn't agree more. That's the first time I've seen this written by someone else :)

The apparent vagueness surrounding the differences between OOBEs, AP and LDs are a testament to their subjectiveness. However, there are distinct differences that apply to many individuals experiences that do have difinitive commonalities that allow catagorization. If they didn't, we wouldn't have anything to compare our own experiences to; non of us who have experienced OOBEs, AP or LDs would be able to relate if they didn't contain common threads.

I'll be frank and basic... so bare with me...

We perceive and experience a 'normal' dream as an unfolding narrative. We believe what we are seeing and act accordingly; We run away and try and hide from the giant floating purple octopus.
Under normal circumstances (waking life) we would reason with this vision; "Why is a giant purple octopus floating down the street? This is silly or I'm hallucinating".
In a dream we are partially if not wholly amnesic about our 'real life'. We seem to have an understanding and belief in what transpires in the dream... it isn't until waking up that we realise that the best friend we had in the dream wasn't actually our best friend or that the dream-house we were in was our childhood home but an obscure bastardized version of it. This points to the evidence that we have an existence and experience the 'dream-world' seemingly separate from our normal waking existence. It isn't until we physically enter REM that we tap into or rather partially focus on this subconscious, non-physical-self. We seem to just follow it as it makes sense of what is going on. We are colouring this with our projected concerns, fears and experiences of waking life.
When we become Lucid we partially wake up or focus consciously upon the activities and ramblings of our subconscious non-physical-self by realizing that "I'm dreaming", either by accident or by using some sort of LD method. The dream becomes less subconscious... partial control is apparent and it becomes what can be described as HD. There is still a belief based narrative but one is 'there' rather than watching.

My LDs are usually very brief and playfull... and invariably end up with me waking in sleep paralysis whereupon I enter an OOBE. When entering an OOBE from a LD it usually takes place in or around the environment I woke up from (in the physical sense).

If I induce an OOBE from waking consciousness the environment and my perception of being physical and absolutely real is much more 'there'. It can either be a 'clean plate' that comes into being, or an environment I was occupying previous to my 'entering' it. Sometimes I get up from the place I am physically (bed or couch).

the quality of NPMR seems to depend upon how focused I am and how clear or un-cluttered my thoughts were upon entering the experience.

What or where is it called that one would receive a Rote (two bits could receive the same Rote, right; and also what or where is it called that one would access a probable future thread to locate a probable resource to go find, please? While we are at it what or where is it called that several bits could go to on a shared adventure in too? Thank you. :)
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

What's a 'rote'?

EDIT: does it mean repetitive learning?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rote_learning

Not sure what you mean though in relation to OOBEs.

A ROTE is like a telepathic ball of information.