The beginning chunk of this thread is a nice reminder that truth is found through self and at the same time distorted, hidden, and skewed by self. It makes it pretty obvious where to put the most effort.

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-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"

It seems even ants are smarter at maths now than schoolkids ;) - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42558828/ns ... j_2C4KYmSo

Seriously though, Ted has a point. The same dumbing-down of public education that's a problem in the US has been going on for decades here in the UK too. It started here as a misguided attempt to remove 'elitism' (selection) from state schools, coupled with a belief that primary learning by rote was of no value, and that correcting kids' mistakes was inhibiting their freedom of expression.

Arthur

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"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."

Of course Ted has a point as I have agreed with him before about the mess of public education. The thing is that he is NOT in touch with our youth like I am, and I know something different than what he thinks is true because I have experienced kids being able to think well. Public school is just one part of our education in life, and talking down about our youth is something I will not stand for so I am taking a stand. He is talking down about my children too you know because they went to public school. Ted, do you not think my childen had more information given to them to consider beside what they got in public school? Do you not think that?

I have a wonderful view of youth that he misses it seems, and our youth our the future. Ted we are all in this together, and to dismiss youth like you are is not good. Plus there are many young people on the board, and while I know you don't care how you look, it makes you look like an old fart which the youth here can probably get over because they are better thinkers than you think mostly, but new comers will have their buzz harshed and leave, possibly.
Love
Bette

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All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Bette,

No one is personalizing this to your children but you. My children went to public schools, to my regret. My oldest was set up to be home schooled under a gifted curriculum for which he was well qualified but was unwilling to do the work. So he was set up to go to a junior college based high school degree program when he was old enough. Again he chose to not do the work. This has nothing to do with our children. It has to do with the vast number observable doing nothing and capable of little by design as the school system has been deliberately dumbed down. It is too clear and observed by too many independently, including by Tom, not to be true.

Whether our own children or some children are gifted in some other ways does not negate the fact that they would have been better educated in the schools that I and my generation went to.

Ted

To use an information analogy - I see the delivery bit-rate of the system has been lowered and the cost at a given delivery bit-rate has been raised.

This is consistent with other economic models in play now, which are operated on the principle of scarcity in order to maximize a profit.

Ted, I really am trying to be helpful. You sound like you are against the youth rather the system, to me, and I already know how wonderful you really are so I am pointing this discrepancy out.

It is constructive criticism.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

I know several teachers - both work in high schools. Their descriptions of what goes on in their classrooms is unbelievable. In their views there is a huge problem with the public educational system in the U.S. I finished college in 2000 and I was constantly astounded at what my younger classmates didn't know. Almost none of them had a general knowledge of world history, U.S. history, or current events. They kept asking me how I knew so many things. I never considered myself particularly well informed or educated but in comparison....

Ted,
I have to agree with you here. There have been a number of polls among young people, and the results were pretty sad. The number of young people that couldn't even name the capital city of the state they lived in was incredible. Having attended public school myself, and the City University of New York, I must say that, (in Bette's defense) there are opportunities in public school to learn if one is properly motivated. Having said that, I must also say that the school system (in my experience) only prepared me to begin my REAL education after I left school. I was fortunate enough to have a couple of teachers who gave me valuable "note taking" and "research" skills that served me well for years to come. And most of my learning was accomplished by doing my own research and "fieldwork". Collecting data seems (to me) to be a lifelong search. There is so much to learn, So much to investigate. And so little time.

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LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

If you go to the web site I linked to above, the original book published by John Gatto is available to read for free. It describes how what was basically the Prussian school model was spread around the world. I believe the title is the Underground History of American Education. The very elite are to be taught everything. The technicians like doctors and engineers are to be taught all they need technically but don't need any philosophy, etc. The rest, about 94% need to know how to find places to make deliveries and to make small change and it is not advisable for them to think more deeply. They become harder to lead into battle. They want to think too much for themselves. Sheep that follow unthinkingly is the model desired.

Ted

Interesting you should bring that up...

Yes, homesar, if the shoe fits, wear it. You do not wish to be bothered with information to provide you with an understanding, you only wish to hear what you want to understand and demand, no effort required. There are also in a flock of sheep the buttheaded, the rams, with a disputatious disposition and no understanding.

Ted

ouch

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LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

What is the point Patrick? Why?
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Bette,
I'm not exactly sure why. It may have been an impulse (with tongue in cheek) and there was not a lot of thought involved in it. But I do notice, lately, that when the feedback mechanism kicks in, and I witness one of my fellow "rats getting zapped" I am becoming more and more sensitive to their pain.

But when the pain levels are equivalent to a small bump on the head, a stubbed toe, or a pie in the face, it can still cause me to chuckle (just a little) after I cringe. lol

I do realize that this is a very sophomoric response, but I still find it funny when someone gets a little (tiny) "zap" from the system. It reminds me of Moe (from the three stooges) when he hands curly the hammer, while holding a nail to a piece of wood, and says: "Okay. When I nod my head, you hit it", LOL.

Pardon my outburst, and pay no attention to the fool, laughing at his own jokes. :-)

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LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

"One of your fellow rats gets zapped" is you being rude to Ted as he does his job here. He's a rat too, when he gets zapped do you stand up for him?
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.