How can I answer that question if I never felt as a woman? May be gay guys can answer you that question, I don't know. I think I reacted that way because I wanted to create a change in the flow of the experience. So I did and it worked.

In general you can say, if you are satisfied with a situation, don't change it, if not try some change. You can get to know me here :)

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

I am halfway thru MBT the trilogy and it is changing my life

_________________
LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

Hi pgtrue, and welcome to Tom's MBT discussion site. I understand what you are saying, totally (in my own way). :)
Love to you and yours,
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

hi bette,
thanks. I am enjoying MBT tremendously, and now I think I will also enjoy this forum as well. there are limited opportunities for me to discuss these topics in my daily activities so you might be seeing a lot of me from now on (hopefully)


patrick

_________________
LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

Hello everyone!

I am new to this forum and I enjoy the discussions here very much. I have not started reading MBT but I have watched several of the TC's talks and read this treatise on ethics.

I guess I have come across a dilemma that arises from the use of this ethical model:

Working with the presented ethical model - is it moral to educate others about the fact that their behavior and intend is not moral?

It might hurt to see that one acts out of the wrong motives: But how are you going to change it if no one bothers to tell you? People tend to mistake the message with the messenger and project their refusal to lower their entropy upon the one who reminds them of their immoral intentions...

Looking again at the axioms of the ethical model:



1. No problem: Intention is caring.

2. a) Here the first problem arises: I can not know how people will react to my reminder. I can only extrapolate my reaction - and that would be grateful.
b) If I do not know how people might respond I have to take into account that they may react emotional to my reminder.
c If I have some data that confirms the previous suspicion and still cling to reminding people of their intentions I violate the principal of caring since I then act negligently.

The dilemma I sense here is: in order to promote ethical behavior or explain my own moral actions I will face a situation in which I accuse others of acting out of immoral intentions which leads them to show emotions of fear, pain or sorrow - which I knowing of the probability of these reactions can not anymore claim to have been doing out of a caring intention - since I know that my intervention might cause emotional imbalance within others.

So: Is this analysis correct? If so: What to do about it? Don't bother, when someone acts immoral? Of course the subject of war and the brutal violation of others decision-space has been addressed but I see a general problem here. To give you an example: I strictly adhere to buying ethically sensitive goods like chocolate or sugar from fair trade corporations since it is a widely known problem that children are forced to work on plantations and hence are mentally, emotionally, physically and often times sexually abused because people want to buy cheap goods from anywhere in the world at any time in the year. So the immoral act I infer here is going to the supermarket and buying sugar produced from slave-labor. The act is obviously immoral since its intention does not take into account the well being of everyone - especially not when there has been direct education about circumstances under which this good is being produced.

So what to do - practically speaking?

_________________
"Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world."

- Dao de jing, 1.

One does the best that one can. Stay out of endless loops of over analyzation.

Ted

Thank you for your answer.

My intention was not to create an intellectual problem here.

I ask out of practical interest: I run into this problem quite often when discussing with other people. As soon as I derive universal principles, which they seem to violate they react emotionally. So I am seriously pondering of applying what is known as the 'three filters of Socrates' when speaking to certain people: Only say something when you know it to be 1) true, 2) good and 3) relevant. ;)

_________________
"Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world."

- Dao de jing, 1.

I think Tom would say focus on your own behavior and leave people alone

skillfully focused, radical intent, should be enough to wake people up

depends also on your motive...are you judging and thinking...what bad behavior! I need to correct this for the children of wherever! this is kind of an egoic perspective

or are you thinking...this person might be more effective at reaching their goals if they considered a broader decision space...and you might gently point out these alternatives, with humour and detachment, kind of an empathetic perspective

they wont want to hear about it though, unless they are complaining about a problem, or asking for help...so part of the skillset is learning how to recognize windows of opportunity...but more importantly, learning how to dial down the focus on others bad behavior and dial up the focus on your own

while intent is key, you will also want to educate yourself on how the world actually works, and read about both sides of the fair trade movement...like asking the question...what happens to those kids when the cocoa harvesting jobs disappear due to well-intentioned europeans forcing employers to fire them (do they starve or end up with garbage dump jobs?) what happens when GMO delivery of penicillan through bananas is shut down due to the same mechanism, or mining activity is stalled in developing nations due to interference from OECD country political radicals?

one trick of ego is to get the focus off of our own game....like off of the fact that you do not show proper respect to your mother or are not on speaking terms with your sister....or you are rude to fast food service staff...but rather are mentally tied upon other peoples perceived bad behavior regarding international trade

If you want to become at TOE- head, the most important thing is to begin a form of meditation, even if it is for a few minutes, start with one minute...but ideally, 20 minutes twice a day. This is not easy for some...and for me it is a big hurdle.

Try to read one page of the trilogy each day...if going through it linearly is too much of a challenge, carry it around, and open it to a random page a few times per day, or keep it beside the toilet.

you can also do this random reading online with the electronic version...

http://books.google.com/books?id=RYHtBP ... nt&f=false

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Hi Nemo, and welcome to Tom's MBT discussion forums. First, don't accuse simply point out the behavior and how it is harmful to an other to them. If the behavior you think is immoral is done towards you personally you have more power in pointing it out, if it is towards and other you can still point it out. You cannot know until you know, you are right. It makes more sense to control our own behaviors than try to control others behaviors really since we cannot control others behaviors unless we manipulate them. If you are manipulating them with Love based Intent (you probably need to read the books to really KNOW what that means) rather than using Fear based Intent (making them change to suit you) then if you're wrong it isn't that harmful since you are acting in Love. Protect anyone you see being hurt by those with bad Intent however you can. Knock down an bunch of cans near someone abusing their child in the store rather than get into a fight with the parent, stuff like that. Tell people god is a myth then explain to them how it came to be because they cannot know if they have been trained to not know. When you hear people judging others on myth based biases, call them out on it. Stuff like that. Welcome again.
Love to you and yours,
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Nemo,
The moral code is not intended to be applied to others. It is intended as a guide for SELF application. We cannot change others by imposing "morals" upon them, or by appearing to be "judgmental" of others behavior, as this will only be viewed as "self important" and "superior". And in the words of Carl Jung: "Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses"
If you understand how the system is set up to help us, with internal and external feedback (among other things) to help us, you will understand that:
1) High entropy lifestyle is a painful condition.
2) Any help (in the form of guidance and correction) can be misinterpreted as a personal attack (or insult), and can possibly cause violent responses.
3) To choose to do nothing may NOT be the most beneficial choice, and may, itself, be a selfish choice. (if it is based on the desire to avoid hostility)
4) This leaves us only ONE course of action that is neither judgmental nor superior.

We can show COMPASSION.

"Life is suffering", To understand all, is to forgive ALL.
~Buddha~
"Try to help people. If you cannot help them, at least try not to hurt them"
~The Dalai Lama~

_________________
LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

Sometimes the best way to cause others to rethink their behavior and ideas is through example. Be the best you can be - always evolving toward Love. Others around you may want to know the secret to your peace and serenity. Some times the people around you just aren't ready to change.

The rule I try to follow is something the old hippie guru told me years ago. He said the rule is this; "Be hard on yourself, but easy on others"

_________________
LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

That doesn't seem right, but if it works for you...
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Thank you all very much for your replies.

@ kroeran



I agree with that. But if focused intent is your method of action people will naturally ask or comment on your behavior if it differs from theirs or the way the majority handles the issue... ;)



True. Thinking that simply buying fair trade goods is turning third world countries into paradise is not leading anywhere. But refraining from the consumption of non-fair products at least lowers the demand for them and in the long term production might be shifted toward more sustainable models that help the local communities provide better education and economic opportunities to their members...



Oh yes. :) Actually I come from a spiritual background, i.e. I have been educated in Vedanta and Buddhism - mainly Zen and Bön. So I practice meditation already. My story of coming here was quite an Odyssey: actually I decided to prepare to join a Monastery of my Buddhist lineage a while ago and was about to take these preparations to a serious level, like learning Tibetan, focusing on my practice etc. but then I came across the books by Robert Monroe. Being open minded and skeptical I wanted to read them since it might be a enrichment to how to practice learn out-of-body experiences, I thought. And so I read them. Having been going through the discordian school of Robert Anton Wilson, smashing my belief-system wasn't a very new experience. ;) But that was exactly what happened: Bob's mention of the belief-system-realms really disturbed me - since it made total sense. And so I decided to get rid of every shrivel inside my ontology that was not a known - but a believe. And since even Buddhism is fundamentally based on beliefs - most Westeners don't know anything about it and hence miss that point - I decided to adopt everything useful from the spiritual and scientific traditions I know about and sort out the belief-parts. And exactly after I figured out how to go the next step in this new metaphysical homelessness I came across Thomas Campbell and his Big TOE. That was just a short overview about my background - but I guess that might be helpful to know. ;)



Thanks. I will soon order the original and for the time I have to wait for it I will use the digital surrogate. ;)

@ bette



Thank you very much. :)



Yes, I agree. So I assume this is discussed within TEO?

@ pgtrue



Yes, that is clear. My point simply was: how do I apply it to myself in a case where moral judgement of the intention of others is an issue... ;)



The foundation of our action should be compassion. But compassion can express in different forms. In Buddhism this can take varying forms: If I chose to be compassionate toward you - so that you do not create suffering to other sentient beings and hence more for you - I might confront you and tell you that you are acting completely immoral buying non-fair-trade coffee. If you do not comply to my action I could simply discard that of stemming from your ignorance and I would not need to bother about the repercussions I might have created. In this way it is easier to act and not have to think about the consequences. If you tell someone: act in love. That does not mean anything. Love for who or what? What is the primary drive behind an action and does it necessarily fulfill its intention just because the intention was good? And I find this is very well addressed in this moral treatise by this axiom:



If you buy non-fair-trade coffee I might say: 'Look the slave-labor kids in Africa!' Don't I act out of compassion? If I say: 'Never mind.' ->Because 'I don't want to argue with you plus you show no interest in well intended moral action. So forget about it.' Don't I also act out of compassion? These things are very delicate and practically they can cause a lot of trouble. A lot of times when I am asked why I do something a certain way and I insist upon explaining the moral decision behind that - people are offended. Because I mirror their immorality. If I refrain from explaining they are offended, too... ;)

@ Sainbury



Yes, I find that the most practical approach. I guess it boils down to developing a very sensitive eye for the people you deal with and adjust your behavior accordingly.

_________________
"Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world."

- Dao de jing, 1.

I believe you are both right...

if you are in the business of being hard on anyone, better on yourself than others

however, syntropic-self-assessment can drift into the less favorable water of entropic-self- loathing, and I think it is the latter that you are thinking about, regarding being hard on yourself

when someone close to me drifts into this...I just say quietly and matter-of-fact'ly "self-loathing"...in the same manner of the Buddhist meditation instruction....when you wake up to being aware of mental chatter, you mentally label it "thinking", and then go back to trying to be in the room.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?