No. I heard about it - that's all I have to do with it. The vrVR [VR within VR] I use the most is the Internet. ;) Why do you ask?

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"Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world."

- Dao de jing, 1.

Ted, I really like what you wrote here. I am wondering, however, of your inclusion of "thief."

Don't you know the children's rhyme for fortune telling while pulling the petals off of a flower? The version I remember is
Rich man, poor man, beggar man, thief
Doctor, lawyer, Indian Chief.
When you run out of petals, you have your prophecy of what you will be or who you will marry. It goes back to England of centuries ago and has many, many variations. One could be a thief and still lower one's entropy. The lowering of entropy is what counts where it counts.

Ted

Sure, hiding in a monastery or behind a collar, or moving beyond comfort to wealth based on egoic intent, these are all likely inefficient.

What I attack is the common idea that any job is more meaningful than the next. There is a low entropy way of executing any job.

In fact, I argue that so called meaningful jobs are actually spiritually inefficient, as you may be distracted from the how because of the what.

In all jobs or businesses, it all comes down to that moment when you have to choose between having an unhappy boss, or an unhappy spouse...and which one you pick at that DELTA(t)

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That's only if you end up with a spouse that puts you second or last even. Times are changing and people are realizing suffering to please another means that other isn't part of the team, but JUST a dependent without ability to create their own happiness. What a terrible position to be put in, doesn't sound like Love on either side just doing what has always been done because that is all you have known mindlessly to please society and your god. Yuck. Have fun with that those that can handle that, just realize how forced it sounds when you tell us how it is Randy. I would not wish that life on my worst enemy.
Love
Bette

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All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

In the Civilization games (the 4th, to be specific) you can research technologies to advance your Civilization. After you discover each tech a window pops up with a famous quote that relates to that technology.

The quote in your signature is what pops up when you research Fusion. ;)

It's not quite that binary

In a large organization, there is a hierarchy which evolves incentive trinkets such as larger offices and disincentives such as management lack of eye contact and promotion blacklisting.

There is a parallel set of carrots and sticks in the home, and these two systems interact, with you and your intent caught in the middle

Each actor on this stage is at a different level of entropy, with a broad array of permutations to observe in each household along your street

Where I was going with the above thought, was that while there is an efficacy gain from from moving toward practicality regarding paying the rent, there is a sweet spot and a downslope of diminishing returns, if you put the boss above the spouse when faced with challenging decision vectors that will inevitably come up

My own life is very very far from the Ozzie and Harriet model I think you are projecting on me

Economic pragmatism does not equal social conservatism, which is a belief of the left

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I understand that you are explaining the current paradigm Randy. I just think the entire thing sucks. I don't think YOU created this messed up model that some humans currently think is how it is suppose to be, and therefore support it by playing that game. It's just that you represent it well when you speak, so you are the one that gets my attention because the current paradigm needs to be the old paradigm quickly if we want to pull huwomanity out of the muck that pardigm put us in. :)
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

I think we each have the freedom to build the new paradigm with our individual choices, and I believe Tom is saying that part of lower entropy is perceiving the true width of our decision space, especially in freedom oriented cultures and economies where there are few actual constraints that don't have work arounds

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Could be.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

:D I first ran over that quote in one of Robert Anton Wilson's books, I guess it was Prometheus Rising or Cosmic Trigger. And a few days ago it just popped into my mind again and it didn't go away until I 'externalized' it via putting it into my signature. ;)

But it kinda fits to the development of fusion power... ;)

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"Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world."

- Dao de jing, 1.

'Any' would be too far for my taste. But at least there are a lot. [You know there was a time in German history were there were quite a few jobs that didn't exactly match the description of being 'low entropy'... Like SS-Officer in Poland for example. ;)] But afar from the really nasty stuff there is a lot of space open for decisions within the possibility of creating low entropy while being engaged in a working environment.



That sums it up very nicely. It's always the same problem: mistaking the map for the territory or mistaking form for content...

_________________
"Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world."

- Dao de jing, 1.

yes, once the core principle is established, we can keep peeling the onion...there is always another layer

I think....every job, and this is specific to local culture and more importantly, the culture of the boss, has a reaction algorithm to the QoC of the employee, and the interaction of that algorithm with the high QoCs decision space of a low entropy IUOC may lead to either a range of material negative consequences for the employee, or the will of the employee surrendering to the force of the algorithm, or some uncomfortable accommodation between the two.

for example, if the core institution is a government without the consent of the people, as in post democratic nazism or middle eastern despotism, only an FWAU of very high entropy could tolerate any sort of accommodation to the reaction algorithm, which violates so many innocent decision spaces, and is therefore unethical at its core, or where perhaps an accommodation might be possible in the general army, it would not be possible in the SS, depending on the level of QoC, and balanced with lets say family responsibilities. That being said, there must have been a range of QoC among the SS, and FWAUs who showed mercy and restraint within that system, within the decision space available at each DELTA(t) of significance. (DOS?)

under the more normal paradigm, I would think a lower entropy FWAU would not interact well with the decision space of a legal but exploitive sales enterprise which was deceptive at its core and manipulated persons to buy things they could not afford, but might find a calling in providing comfort to inmates in a prison as a prison guard or special handling for executions (legal executions done under rule of law and the consent of democracy)...to reach for an extreme example.

the core hypothesis is that persons under stress may be seeking spiritual answers to what is a problem of disconnection from their economic ecology. Submission to the idea that work and free enterprise are natural and normal and violate no spiritual code, triggers a paradigm shift in the FWAUs relationship to their environment...and what was a beautifully constructed schooner adrift, due to lack of sailing skills, trims his/her sails and begins to move forward, according to his/her design.

with this part of life brought from disorder to order, the decision space opens up and energy can be redirected to higher things such as meditation, reading, focused intent, PSI, chatting on forums

now, I present this as one option to open up one 's decision space...one's guides or the FWAU themselves may choose economic disorder or a vow of poverty or a siddarthian exit from the castle to gather different data

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So you say, that in theory, the refusal to accept the algorithm may lead to 'negative material consequences'. What do you mean with 'material'? Everything PMR-related ['physical'] or everything related to moneyz ['economic']...?

Judging by this:

- I guess what you mean with material here is the PMR-related stuff, isn't it? If not I would appreciate some further clarification on this. ;)



This is some sound analysis.

Basically I can relate to this model. I just thought about how it might be possible to detect that algorithm for oneself. So that it is clear what one needs to surrender to and stop fighting against. Or do you think it is advisable to follow a personal codex - Hagakure-style - in this regard?



To me this approach seems reasonable. I will contemplate its consequences - if applied to my situation. Thanks. ;)

_________________
"Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world."

- Dao de jing, 1.

## a wise dude once told me, professionally, "you have to find your crowd"...and part of that is seeking and courting a boss or company or institution that has a high enough QoC behavioral bell curve to tolerate your "weirdness", or they are weird like you are...or you have to be so frigging productive, they are willing to overlook your weirdness - best to have both

money, office allocation, parking spot, pecking order, task type, tone of voice - there is a vast array of tools they employ as carrots and sticks to get control of you, and you are doing the same back to them, and this can be unfriendly either way, or it can be cooperative, win win (Stephen Covey anyone?)

all this PMR ego-material stuff though is secondary to the NPMR QoC feedback, where a serious material setback might coincide with positive QoC feedback...but this rare, and I believe it is not an either or thing



## so I am saying, figure out how to pay the rent in a practical reasonable way, that is relatively harmless, the usual free exchange of useful products or services, without going overboard into miserliness or love of money, so that you free up your attention for the higher things, which is difficult if you are worried about how to pay for your kids dental bill. The higher things also include using your worklife as a canvas of the higher arts, the how rather than the what.

Tom talks about first order, second order and third order drives. First order is food and water and sex. AUM built you with these drives, and I recommend a matter of fact, harm-less approach to these things, to avoid them taking up too much energy.

Second order is everything beyond the 5 minute planning horizon. Short term pain for long term gain. Education, saving, biting your lip, diet, exercise, ...all the selfish smart behaviors required of pragmatic life.

Third order is everything beyond the infinite PMR planning horizon. Some families have multigenerational planning, and will sacrifice their lives so that their children will have a better life. This is still kinda in the realm of ego..."for even the wicked do such things". Third order is the so called mystical love stuff, that really defies logic....Tom's higher ruleset, and then folding in the concept of balance, which Tom also talks about, but does not directly link to first, second and third order drives.

My interpretation of this is that the algorithm of our life is find that sweet spot that balances our first, second and third order hungers, at each moment of our decision tree, and that a commitment to this is a sort of fourth order of efficiency, as most people are dominated by one of the lower orders.

A monk is someone who chooses the third order, and makes war with the first and second. The teaching and example of Tom, (and Judaism) is that we can have it all, it is all about pleasure, but this is not hedonism, it is about sustainable pleasure maximized across your lifetime, and the lifetime of your higher apparently eternal self.



this is outside my understanding, but after a brief wiki review, it brings to mind what Tom says about fearlessness and how dieing is just not that big a deal. Its like that crazy teen chick who sailed around the planet...what a powerful example of fearlessness...or these bible thumpers I know who tromp into the jungle routinely to save child slaves....they are having such a great time (while racking up pension credits in safe jobs)





I was reaching into other thinking in this regard...Tom's guidance is more about dropping in than dropping out. Part of being ordinary, in things superficial and visible, is to stick a silver spike through ego, and defeat spiritual materialism....to borrow from Chogyam.

It was Chogyam's membership in the Boulder Chamber of Commerce that startled me out of the counter culture...like that other guy here that can't wrap his head around the quality of Tom's teachings, and the fact that he worked on missal defense.

the real challenge is figuring out just exactly what is bothering you...where is the itch - in your twenties, there are normally about five or six to sort out...its very confusing, and difficult to isolate and dispense with each one.

I suggest examining and testing each one of these separately
- boredom
- loneliness
- taking egolessness too far, mental egolessness beyond core being egolessness
- inefficiently narrow financial decision space (Rich Dad, poor Dad)
- anthropological incorrectness (disconnect from R-complex and nature - paleolithicism)
- aesthetic stress (living in an ugly messy environment)
- social stress...are my buddies/family bringing me down, holding me back (Antony Robbins)

sometimes, what we think might demand a great spiritual quest, can be solved by going camping or joining a poker club, and our spirituality itself can become the disease.

what a great discussion!

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