Well then by all means do. :)
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Marcello,

There is no universal 'right' and 'wrong', when one size fits all. Some people are on their last runs in PMR, and they have already tried all the fame, money, stunning beauty, and etc. There is nothing wrong with all of that, but nobody can take anything from that list with him, when he exits this PMR. Only one thing is really belongs to us. What kind of person one is, that's all. Everything else has no real value beyond PMR life.

Lena

_________________
'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.

Marcello,

Have you read The Moral Code for MBT?

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2944
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2945

It is a code of ethics (values) that can help guide your choices. There's even several examples given for various ethical problems in our culture today. That may help you out.

As for your questions about needs and desires, again it depends on your definition of the terms. I feel that you are getting stuck in your own meaning of the words. We've already explained the difference, and I've even given you a direct source to where it is clarified in MBT. You are mixing up desire with Intent. The distinction is made because it is an important one to make.

_________________
Mike

Marcello,

I totally get your "puzzledness" about wants and desires. It's hard for me to explain, but how I interpret those wants and desires Tom talks about are those that are negatively affecting your consciousness evolution.

My advice to you? Define wants and desires for yourself. Another one is to read about Buddhism. Buddhism explains wants and desires in another way that may help you. Buddhism is a "religious" metaphor meaning acquiring concentration through meditation. It is the Art of Concentration. Anyhow... Another one is to write down on a piece of paper all your wants and needs, desires. Observe and ask questions about that list. Good, wrong, etc. I presume you're not ready to get rid of your want and desire for love, acceptance, friends, house, car, etc. I'm not, you're not and we're not. Or we may want, but can't. It probably takes a saint to justify and accept being wipped to death, getting rid of his own want and need to not receive harm, for the sake of humanity... Get it?

I want a cookie. What is my relation to that want? What will my reaction be if I do get that want or not? What is the meaning, purpose and "role" of that want. Good, bad or simply neutral? Irrelevant, important?

Basically, what are the effects of that want. I want a car. I seriously do. Will it make my life easier? Yes. Is that
want beneficial if i'm obssessed by it? Is it good if I become depressed and angry becau
use I don't have that want? Arnold Schwar...(Terminator) wanted to be bodybuilder, a movie star and a politican. Guess what happened... Is there somethin wrong with his "want"? Hell no! I love "I'm back", his huge muscles and funny accent. He is a role model of hard-work, determination and fulfilling your dreams. He wanted something, he got it. Lucky him.

Your wants and desires cause either great suffering and pain, or pure joy. Either way, when you die, they don't *****. LOL. Sour humor...

And yes, Tom is very vague as to why wants, desires and ego are "bad" when they are pure, natural and a simple, unmistakable part of life. Detachment from them. Not being affected negatively by them. Not being engulfed, killed, mad or sick by them. Desires create sickness, suffering, pain, illusions, etc. The "wrong desires". It is very paradoxal, ironic and confusing. Lucky us, we're here to learn... Or should I say "tough luck".

Sidney Crosby wanted at 3 years old to be a hocky player. Anything wrong with that? Hell no! How many kids wanted to be hocky players and didnt make it? Was their want wrong? Maybe, I don't know. I wanted to be a rock star, but I dont have the talent. Sad and mad about it? Yes, ofcourse! Normal, typical and natural reaction to getting what you wanted.

What I was r-e-a-l-l-y talented was with martial arts. Pure talent, sorry for sounding arrogant. I wanted to be a pro mma fighter. And trust me when I say I would be today. What happened? My knees and joints were too weak...
I was heart-broken when I realised I couldn't perform ar the highest level because of physical problems, size, joint problems, etc. How do you think I feel to see people without half the talent I have be successful? Nothing. It bothered me, but not anymore. You get over it. You get rid of that want, and you get rid of the pain, and suffering, disappointement, and confusion, and anger, etc.... I have to deal with the rest of my life with a broken dream, like so many others, a lesson in CS. How unfair is CS is to give that talent without the body to go with it? Well, who cares. It's not important. That's getting rid of a want that was negative. But how can you tell if its wrong or not? Life has brutal answers to that...

I stopped doing mma even though I love it, and now I cant stand it, well i cant stand doing it again because it'll make me relive those negative emotions, sadness, etc. I got over it by abandoning it, is that truly getting over it? If i still feel the negatives consequences that want gave me while dong mma, what have I learned? Nothing. If I truly got over it, i'd still be doing it. I'd say, you don't need to be a pro, just do it for fun, for good health, for the action and sparring. Nope. I cant. So, is that want still affecting me? Yes and no. And right now no because im no longer participating in an activity that creates a negative want in me. So, there, my consciousness has learned a lesson. And I'm at total peace with that broken want, total , as long as im not in that environment. Thats evading the problem, running from it, not facing it. But its foolish fighting agaisnt a wild bear bare handed. Its wise to run the hell out of his sight. Mma is my wild bear. Theres nothing wrong with that.

But you see, I now know I love photography, I am talented in photography and I want to be a pro photographer. I have an incredible "eye" for taking good pictures. You see, I don't need the body to do it... Now, I have a want that can truly be productive, beneficial for my well-being.

Another thing, not being able to get rid of them is normal and I mean the way Tom describes it. And we cannot. Unfortunately. That's "my" interpretation.

I will never stop wanting things, desiring things because that is simply human nature. Final.

You gotta have goals in life. Projects, things to do, work to do, wants. If not, you're not helping your consciousness evolution. If Lionel Messi is meant to be the best footballer in history and he doesnt want to... I mean, a non-brainer right?

Human nature.

_________________
God Bless,
M Jack


Courage is not the absence of fear,
Courage is the mastery of fear.

If you don't acquire what you need you die.

If you don't acquire what you want you cry.

Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

MagicJack, I like the way you write.

I see wants as,
To exist you have to make choices obviously making chioces is displaying a want. I think the When Tom uses wants/need/desires hes talking about ego based choices. I look at it as Choices that display inproper Value. All the other Wants/choices i call Preferences. Preferences fall in the catagory of choices that will not shift values improperly. Its a set of choice one can dislplay that will not lower ones ability to be functional/operational/growing. As one has values set higher and higer toward growing being functional then wider range of Preferences can be made that are not ego based.

If one is able to adapt effortlessly, then it was a Preference and ok.

_________________
All Praise to Dez Bryant "Feed tha Beast"

True,

There are millions of kids in Africa who "die" before the age of 5 because they don't have what they "need" : water and food.

And many of them do "cry" because they "want" to live.

_________________
God Bless,
M Jack


Courage is not the absence of fear,
Courage is the mastery of fear.

If I understand correctly it is quite likely that those dieing 5 year old FWAU's are providing essential evolutionary opportunities to the, likely relatively young, respective IUOC

LCS success.

You've got to start somewhere if one is impatient. I guess IF one could be impatient (or bored) though time be a factor "there." I like the Robert Monroe story about reincarnation in the Wed. Night Talk videos.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Desires are an inevitable structure of any reality, they create experiences which in turn lead to knowledge, desire can never be a bad thing just as high entropy is not a bad thing, just part of a system. Wanting a chocolate bar ten lifetimes in a row is no less of value being a saint in one lifetime.


....could murder a snickers right now

_________________
....'we were on the edge of the desert, 100 miles from Barstow, when the drugs began to take hold'...HST

One way of checking if your wants/needs are met, is to check your dreams. If you feel happy-pappy during the day because you have a good job, good income, your wife loves you and your children does their homework, but you are running from a evil cat every night, then there's probably some wants/needs that needs to be dealt with, and you're probably not really happy (-pappy).

I wake up happy whether I remember my dreams of not but the other day I woke up with the rememory ;) that I had been given a managers position in some situation with a because the situation was already all screwed up and I probably couldn't screw it up much more feeling to it.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Tom says that we don't know all of our fears and that they will show or/and dissolve as we decrease our entropy. Dreams can be a good place to spot unknown fears. Its also a good place to experience the bliss of unconditional love and in that way be inspired to lower entropy.

Sometimes one wakes up happy just because we wake up and say to ourselves; oh, it was just a dream. At other times one wakes up happy because one does't remember the dream, and is looking forward to a new day. And of course, we wake up happy after the good dreams. So the point isn't so much the state we wake up in, but what happened in the dream.

If we look at your dream as if it were a film, and you, Bette, were the main character, what is the plot?

The main-character have been given a managers position in a situation because the situation was already screwed up and that person couldn't screw it up no more.

What does this say about the main-character? The only person that can answer this question is you, Bette.

And by the way, thank you for spreading so much love and good vibrations in the forum!

All of us common folks, have to live with wants/needs/desires. Just think about our fundamental needs for food, water, sleep, urinate, etc. If our evolutionary process in the Consciousness System is meant primarily to be done in PMR, than our PMR physical bodies need these fundamental needs. Therefore, needs are a crucial part of our evolutionary process, because to evolve, gain knowledge, gain a lower enthropy, etc., we need to live. How are we suppose to evolve if we can’t live? Try to live without water for a week or two. There is a fundamental need to breath…

Thus, the fact that we have to get rid of our needs is erronous and leads to unnecessary confusion. Buddha, probably the father of «  enlightenment », n-e-v-e-r talked about needs in his « way » and « road » to «  enlightenment ». I think, humbly, with all due respect, that Tom is somewhat misleading us with this concept of abandoning needs. I may be right or wrong, but to prove me wrong, Tom will have to come up with a tremendously accurate and undeniable argument that absolutely justifies and explains his opinion on abandoning our needs. There is only one situation that abandoning them actually is 100% justifiable...

If needs are part of this reality and if this reality is meant to evolve, than needs cannot be sidelined for it is an integral part of our journey. We need the needs, wants and desires to experience PMR. Like I stated above, how can you possibly get rid of our fundamental needs to eat, sleep, drink water and « evacuate »?

If there is someone who can actually explain it to me, well I invite you to do so. That is what I think about «  needs ». Now I’ll state what I think about «  wants ».

Needs naturally generate wants in relation to our fundamental needs. If you do not have enough water for 5 days, it will naturally, without your conscious consent or approval, create in your body and in your mind a « want » for water. Because you need water to live, everyday of our lives, we will «  want » water.

How is the concept of « want » in this example of fundamental PMR reality supposed to be abandoned to evolve is this same PMR reality meant to lower our enthropy to ensure consciousness evolution within the Consciousness System?

If this fundamental «  want » for survival, generated by our primitive fundamental « needs », is crucial for our evolution, how could it not apply to other areas of our existence, such as psychological, spiritual well-being and many other fields of our lives? If we « need » a good job to properly live within our societies, isn’t it absolutely undeniable that we would « want » that job? Than if we « need » that job to be respectable, accepted, etc., which creates a « want » for that job, wouldn’t it create a « desire » to get that job? If we don’t have that « desire » to have that job, how are Individuated Units Of Consciousness, sentient beings, supposed to « want » to build roads, take care of the poor, heal the ill, teach our kids, so on and so forth. Isn’t it a fundamental « need » for our lives in societies to « want » the ill to be cured? If we don’t « need » our fellow people to be healed, if we don’t « want » our fellow people to be healed, than how can we save lives to permit those ill to properly be given a chance to evolve in this PMR created by the larger Consciousness System?

There are practical, pragmatic and down to earth everyday life « needs » and « wants » that can be talked about in theories, but that are not appliable in practice.

Thus, this concept by Tom that states we should abandon our « needs » and « wants » is detached from reality and is incredibly paradoxal with what PMR is all about.

As far as I know and understand these PMR theories brought about by Tom, it can’t be denied that « needs » and « wants », as I explained, are profoundly complexe terms in our PMR experience to be theorized in ways that contradicts that PMR experience we are supposed to go through to evolve our Conscious being.


That being said, abandoning our needs, wants and desires can be applied for the 20 minutes we close our eyes and meditate. How are we supposed to reach the void if we are conscious about those wants and needs that create anxiety, confusion and stress? For 20 minutes, for the time we meditate, Tom’s theory is justified 100%. Our wants, needs and desires create unnecessary suffering, confusion, stress, mental disorders, etc., that cannot be denied. But it is up to us to interpret those desires, needs and wants so as to not feel or more accurately appease the unnecessary negative consequences. Like the famous motto goes « No pain, No gain ». If we don’t feel pain, than how can we know what pain is.

Therefore, if we don’t feel the negative consequences of those needs, wants and desires, how can we know how to experience them to make us evolve, learn and understand?

_________________
God Bless,
M Jack


Courage is not the absence of fear,
Courage is the mastery of fear.

You are reading way too much into it. How do you think Tom use the word "Need" and "Want"? It's a gross misunderstanding, Tom haven't said to abandon biological and essential needs for living, that's pretty far fetched. Tom uses the word need and want in the context of ego and fear, that's it. He is talking about being defined by those needs and wants, limited by being attached with ego to those desires. It's the desires, needs, wants and expectations of the ego that gets the "thumbs down".

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