Hi to all,

I recently finished MBT, wow! I really enjoyed it and will read it again (most of it anyway), the book seems to make so much sense and can be so startling at the same time. It's as though many of the answers have been right in front of us for so long but we just choose to look right past them,or simply ignore/deny them. My compliments to this board, and all of it's members, before joining I browsed for quite a while and it seems there are many serious people who are willing to help, share, and contribute to an intelligent discussion. Very refreshing to find this on a discussion board, as well as, the general regard and respect people seem to have for one another here.

My spiritual journey/curiosity started about a year ago when someone gave my wife "A New Earth" by Eckhart Tolle and I have since read "The power of Now". Since reading and re-reading these books my life has made a shift, I'm constantly working to be present and conscious of everything around me. I try hard to be aware of my ego at all times, it's a struggle at times because I've had such a big one for so long. I also work hard at not being so reactive to things now than I used to be. It's definitely work, but it has been rewarding and I will continue. Now that I've read MBT it seems to have strengthened my resolve that I'm on a good path (lowering my entropy).

I have been meditating for about 2 months now sometimes with binaural beats, sometimes without and I have noticed some changes.

1) I seem to be able to get much deeper already than when I first started
2) Time does seem different, for instance I have meditated for 40 minutes and could swear I only had my eyes closed for about 10minutes
3) I feel calmer and more relaxed throughout my day
4) I have started to dream much more at night and can remember much more of my dreams. It has been many years since I can say I have had so many dreams and have had such recollection of them
5) That being said, I must say much of the time my dreams seem to make no sense whatsoever, and sometimes seem quite silly.
6) I have also had numerous dreams with people of who I have no knowledge of, in places I'm not familiar with, mostly of just slices of life, not doing anything extraordinary. none of these has ever repeated by the way
7) Sometimes when I meditate I feel a slight pressure on my face in the nose, cheeks, to forehead area. Anyone else experience this?

That's all I have for now, glad to have found MBT and this board and I will keep up the work, and keep trying to taste the pudding.

Welcome to the board! Regarding your question, I also experience such things, inside and outside meditation. Many people have reported such things, it is not uncommon.

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-Binary Digital Data Transmission-
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Yes taster101 welcome to Tom's MBT discussion forums. This is a special place, I concur.
Love to you and yours,
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

welcome to the forum!

Hello. I am a former lurker who has just subscribed to this forum.

I'll begin by saying that I greatly enjoyed Tom's trilogy and YouTube videos. I found them to be insightful, thought-provoking and inspiring. However, I am having difficulty understanding a couple of the concepts he advances in the books.

In "Awakenings", we are told that future artificial intelligences (like AI Guy) will not be born "with a pre-existing nonphysical part (soul)" like us because they are created within PMR --- presumably because they will have evolved as a subset of PMR whereas we evolved as a subset of NPMR. But are not all humans, whether birthed from a womb or gestated in a test tube, also created in PMR? Are our brains not "booted up" in PMR just like a hypothetical AI computer?

In a similar vein, I am having difficulty understanding the concept of consciousness "quality" as Tom describes it. If we are born into PMR with a nonphysical part (soul) already in place (hosted by a physical body, or constrained by a physical body within the PMR rule set), but without any PMR knowledge or memory of any previous PMR learning lab experiences, then of what practical value is this "quality"? What features and function does this quality convey? Infants, it seems to me, exhibit very high entropy consciousness. They have dim awareness, a small decision space, are entirely self-centered and utterly helpless. So in what way is this quality, accrued from previous PMR incarnations and NPMR experiences, evident in a newborn infant?

I would like to re-iterate that this post is not intended to be critical, flippant or to disparage the ideas and the message of Tom's books. I am simply trying to better understand the concepts.

Your thoughtful and helpful responses are appreciated.

~ Icarus

Hi Icarus and welcome to posting on the board. :)

As I see it Quality of Consciousness (QoC) is the metaphor that would be associated with the Entropy level of a specific bit of consciousness of to the entire Consciousness System. An infant is born with the QoC that was Conserved at the death of the previous life in what is called, I'm calling, Conservation of Quality of Consciousness. The infant has basically a blank slate that means they are free from limiting Belief Systems about Reality such as how the physics works and what stuff means from day one as they grow up in whatever life situation the bit of consciousness that continued reincarnated into. The QoC they are born with is grown into depending on how many limiting Belief Systems they had installed and how well they can get rid of them that they continue Evolving by learning how to be more Love based towards other. Also when very young they do have access to the QoC they will be growing into still because the connection is still clear and hasn't been all mucked up by adults and society. Does that help?

Welcome again.
Love to you and yours,
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

What Bette said.

Your entropy level as an IUOC is something that you are stuck with, other than you have the opportunity to improve it during your lifetime, or blow it as the case may be. This is a slow process and requires multiple life times. In a very real sense, the process is not there for your advantage as a PMR experiencing FWAU. You are doing all the work of improving your QOC and thus the QOC of your NPMR based FWAU and to a tiny extent, the QOC of AUM itself. We, as PMR FWAUs, are the point of the spear, the most effective part of the system in terms of producing a maximum rate of entropy reduction. Don't think of it however as unfair to us, as we are really they. The real you/us is the IUOC. The PMR FWAU is simply a subset of that whole IUOC set up for this purpose and of course, the IUOC is a tiny subset of the whole of AUM. AUM as all of Reality, all that is, has not been able to devise a better or more effective or more efficient means of entropy reduction than the PMR type of VR. As Tom once said, we are the working fluid of the Consciousness Engine that is AUM. Chug, chug, chug, do your part.

Ted

apart from the impressive postings above...let me add my two cents...rather switch it around slightly to expressing it as our nonphysical IUOC (the eternal you) being assigned a sensor platform to take the controls of, with quality of conciousness at the IUOC level remaining intact, sort of with a ratcheting up bias, but with PMR FWAU recollection virtually wiped clean to clear limiting belief (the downside to acquiring a left hemisphere), and then you ask, "what's in it for me, this quality of consciousness crap!"

firstly, you are not your PMR FWAU, you are "your" IOUC, you are your free will, initially dumped in the truck of speeding car with a crazy sociopath at the wheel. Mission one is to crawl out of the trunk and get into the back seat, so that you can at least start to orient yourself and become aware of the driver. Step 2 is to get into the front seat and occasionally grab the wheel, and step three is to have a personal arab spring and take over the drivers seat. Apparently, and the following is eluded to in the last page of the trilogy, ...you can end up worse than in the trunk, being pulled along at the end of a rope...which is a sobering thought (I think this is what happens if you do not play along with the game AUM has designed for you).

so there is the level of quality that you appear to inherit form the PMR FWAU perspective, and there is the delta or progress of quality, which actually where you and your free will come in. Initially, life is growing into the size of your paws, and there is a rapid movement through intense feedback and instinctively knowing what to do about feedback, as a high quality IUOC dude, toward your inherent set point quality of conciousness level, and beyond that it is bush whacking step by step as you forge new territory at the IUOC level. Your manifest quality, that is, the quality that you have brought to the surface in phase I, impacts the quality of your intent, and good intent leads to a better environment, lessor intent leads to a more painful environment, over the medium term, in a self stablizing system. So there is this practical motivation to draw out your inherent quality as soon as possible, through meditation, study and reaching for better intent - and I would speculate...anything that stimulates your right hemisphere (creativity and mystical religion, "meditation light")

apart from your quality level, which is inherited and slow moving, there is the delta, or rate of change. It appears according to the model, that there is a feedback mechanism at the NPMR level that sends you positive feedback for forming better intent, which, depending on your effectiveness, translates into better decisions, actions, results, at the PMR level. So, in a sense, we are feedback grazers/hunters. I would assert that acting on this information is merely intelligent or big picture selfishness, and that ignoring it is actually pretty dumb. Caring more for others ends up building a better life, in every way. The monkey with his fist in the coconut monkey trap gives up on the banana, which releases the banana.



an infant may have high quality, but it takes time for the IUOC to fully shift attention to the fresh PMR FWAU and then for the PMR FWAU to settle down, experience the emergence of the left hemisphere and frontal cortex, acquire PMR left hemispheric brain washing, and then hopefully overcome local materialist belief and discover that there is an AUMish IUOC (a world beyond the senses), and then gradually accept being piloted by the IUOC rather than their impulsive R-complex or more strategic ego elements of the left hemisphere

...sort of like the sentiment behind the song "Jesus take the wheel"... trying to run your life at the level of your mental faculties and ego is a step by step decent into PMR hell

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Thanks so much for your responses. I think perhaps this is beginning to come into better focus for me.

I imagine it works like this. An infant, operating inside a small decision space, can only express its QoC within a very limited context. Children and developmentally disabled persons are likewise restricted in terms of how they can express their quality. Could it be that QoC must be assessed relative to the entity’s decision space? Kind of like IQ: we don’t give 7-year-olds the same exact standardized IQ test that we give 12-year-olds, even though measured IQ is usually invariant throughout a lifetime.

Am I any closer to understanding this? If so, would it be more appropriate to think of QoC as a quotient rather than as an absolute measure --- with the caveat that our QoC quotient is not invariant?

Icarus,

Your QOC and entropy are expressed and exist within your actual core being as an IUOC. They are not invariant as the whole purpose of the VRs is to provide a way for your QOC to be expressed and improved and thus the QOC of AUM is thus to be improved, tiny increment by tiny increment. This is a slow process, taking many PMR life times where most of the work is done.

When you enter upon a PMR incarnation as an infant, your ability to express your QOC is limited by the PMR rule set. You become subject to all sorts of societal beliefs as you grow up. The process of learning to reject those beliefs where appropriate is part of the refining process by which your QOC is improved and your entropy lowered. There is a lot of apparent dissatisfaction that this is such an arduous task, requiring many repeats of onerous life times and having to repeat the climb from infancy to adulthood and if you are fortunate, eventually to add some slight improvement in your QOC to your IUOC. But this is the way that it is, the way that it works. Your QOC is not an intellectual matter but rather a matter at the being level which is digital data/code within a digital consciousness which is what your IUOC is.

Your IUOC exists within the LCS which is essentially a cellular automaton which is not subject to gross modification of the code but rather to modification of parameters and only very slowly at that. Look at the neurology of our brains which is a model after the fact for the complexity of our actual IUOCs as digital data/code. We simulate brain functioning within computers with digital neural nets. When neural nets are trained, the parameters that link signals through the network are modified. These are gross simplifications of how we think that our brain works and what we know of our brains workings, as virtual simulations of the reality of our actual minds as IUOCs, is very limited. But this is our best way to visualize or understand how our IUOCs work at present. So we are 'trained' in the PMR training system to gradually improve our QOC. This requires us to have the free will that arises from participating in the meta realities of the VRs with extremely slow progress in the NPMR VRs and significantly faster progress within the PMR VRs.

AUM does not value a limited perfection or we could have all been turned into clones of the best IUOC that could be found as a model. Instead, AUM recognizes the value of diversity and has an expectation, so it appears, that maximized free will, even with its negative aspects, will ultimately provide the optimum result for QOC and lower entropy. There is an apparent feeling that free will interacting within the VRs of PMR will provide the greatest value and fully justify the negative aspects that unfortunately also exist along with the 'profits' that the evolutionary process of interactions can result in.

Does this help any?

Ted

I think there is an absolute physical decision space which pertains to infants, and more importantly as we age, this is displaced by the artificial constraints we place on ourselves through fear and belief and lack of imagination, counter balanced by this process of coming to terms with our QOC legacy, which can be highly dynamic, with a single life event potentially triggering a severe change in the manifestation of QOC.

I think you mean QOC measurement, rather than actual QoC. I don't think it is actually possible to assess or measure QOC, of others, or even of yourself, at least from PMR, of any age, as we cannot know the actual intent behind action - I don't think we are in the QoC measurement business, which would be a thing of ego, or spiritual materialism, but I assume you are thinking about this abstractly regardless, rather than thinking you could actually measure QoC.

it may however be possible to measure QoC from NPMR, take a scan so to speak...not my area of interest

the model is that QoC is very very stable, and the system is biased toward slight improvement over experience/time- perception of and manifestation of QOC would be subject to great variability due to age, manifestation of QoC, QoC of the measurer, acquiring the technical capacity to appear low entropy, and so on

I think the game is to reach for the best intent we can muster at each DELTA(t) of significance, and pay attention to the intent, decision, action, feedback cycle, which everyone does to some extent as part of the organic process of being human

As a TOE-head, this process may begin with greater conscious loving intention upon your next human interaction, should you decide to form that intent, which is as close as you will get to an alter call in these here parts, partner

as with anything, I put these thoughts gathered from Ted and Tom out there for discussion and correction where merited

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Ted - I think one of the barriers to my understanding at present is my limited NPMR experience and my culturally ingrained tendency to try to condense something complex and subjective into an intellectual framework. This seems like a novice error and it frustrates me that I'm a novice --- which is itself frustrating because it is yet another manifestation of ego.

"There is a lot of apparent dissatisfaction that this is such an arduous task, requiring many repeats of onerous life times and having to repeat the climb from infancy to adulthood and if you are fortunate, eventually to add some slight improvement in your QOC to your IUOC."

I don't want to complain because I am fortunate enough to have been born into a stable home in one of the most materially prosperous countries on earth, but to be honest, I already don't want to do this PMR thing again.

Kroeran - You're right: I was considering QoC in the abstract.

"the model is that QoC is very very stable, and the system is biased toward slight improvement over experience/time- perception of and manifestation of QOC would be subject to great variability due to age, manifestation of QoC, QoC of the measurer, acquiring the technical capacity to appear low entropy, and so on"

This makes a lot of sense. Any attempt to measure of QoC would be subject to all kinds of biases. But what I am actually trying to grasp is how the quality of an IUOC is conferred to its offshoot FWAU when the FWAU is emptied of all memory of previous PRM experience and all experiential knowledge. How can wisdom (right intent) manifest in the absence of intellect or experience?

I really appreciate your patience with me so far. I hope I don't wear out my welcome.

~ Icarus

you don't have a choice regarding coming back, which is one motivation for discovering your legacy quality and improving it so that you play the big game more effectively so that it becomes more enjoyable

Maybe not so much lack of choice, more like the boredom of not having a PMR FWAU drives you back

quality is not at the mental level...it's the gut empathy response that autonomically pushes you to do irrational apparently unselfish actions...the person of quality does not think of them as unselfish actions...they just act

This empathy response is not wiped clean, and is only slightly below mental awareness, to be quickly flushed out in youth with initial experimentation, lessons of the soul you quickly relearn

Like you try stuff...I think it was grade 5 when I heard about putting a tack on a girls chair as being a fun thing to do...thankfully, the girl saw it before sitting on it, there was some drama in the classroom, clear feedback, and i worry to this day how that act must have harmed her emotionally and I think that was my first and last intent to intentionally harm a female

Then you get it into your head to defend someone against a bully, and you discover a deep persistent pleasure at fighting for justice, that was already baked in to your quality....again, lessons quickly relearned

at a certain early point you finish your review, relearning stuff, and then you hang around and wait for the system to try to teach you something truly novel at the eternal level, that your IUOC has not faced or responded appropriately to before

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Icarus,

I don't really think that many of us, thinking from here with our viewpoint, wish to have to do this over again. We feel that we have improved considerably and it seems as if we should not have to do so. But there is always a better polish to be put on the jewel of consciousness. From NPMR we know that here is the place to do so while from here, we see it as the place where the work is hard and the hours long. Make a comparison however. It comes time in the morning to go to work again and do the same ole' same ole' one more time. And we just did it yesterday but they want the same drop of blood out of the old turnip again today. We manage to make it to work regularly, if we are conscientious, and we have the same attitude from NPMR when that is our base of operations instead of here. And when you understand that you are not just your present limited viewpoint but part of the whole and important to the whole, you start to feel that understanding as part of your being and it all changes from drudgery to being all that you are and part of the tide that floats all the boats, not just your little dinghy. Not that that removes the drudgery, just gives an incentive to tolerate it.

Ted

I remember reading somewhere that the Buddha taught something along the lines of "right thoughts lead to right actions". Tom teaches that right intent leads to right actions. That QoC, or empathy, are initially forgotten but then re-learned early in childhood makes sense to me. That quality and empathy exist just below the mental level also makes sense.

Sometimes it's hard to keep the big picture in mind and see adversity as an opportunity for growth. But I can appreciate the notion that drudgery eventually sets in on the NPMR end as well. There is some comfort in the thought that as we improve our quality and become more effective participants in the big picture dynamic, things become a little easier and more enjoyable. I guess it's time to get serious about meditation.